today's political theory distinction
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Gogirlgo
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 Posted: 10/26/04 - 13:16 Post subject:
| genie wrote: |
This is a serious question, because I know very little about them...how does that system work exactly and what keeps it from becoming corrupt, just the size or something else? |
Why don't you do a little research on it and then if you have questions I'd be happy to answer them?
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genie
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 13:55 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Why don't you do a little research on it and then if you have questions I'd be happy to answer them? |
Because I get paid to WORK at work, that's why. How ungracious of you, considering this was a serious request for information that you seem to have a lot of. Never mind, it isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. :rolleyes:
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 14:32 Post subject:
| genie wrote: |
Because I get paid to WORK at work, that's why. How ungracious of you, considering this was a serious request for information that you seem to have a lot of. Never mind, it isn't that important in the grand scheme of things. :rolleyes: |
Sorry you think it's ungracious of me to hold myself to the same expectations, to work at work. Sorry also you're clearly unable to look up the word "kibbutz" on Google in your spare time. Now you'll never know.
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genie
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 14:52 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Sorry you think it's ungracious of me to hold myself to the same expectations, to work at work. Sorry also you're clearly unable to look up the word "kibbutz" on Google in your spare time. Now you'll never know. |
Fortunately it's not really a burning interest for me. I was merely thinking it would be something interesting to add to the ongoing discussion, which is why I asked the question in the first place. Carry on......
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Ms. Jenn
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 15:03 Post subject:
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coachmarkos
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 15:52 Post subject:
I have no idea if this is on topic or what...
but I remember my History of Russia professor saying that Lenin was probably rolling over in his grave with the changes that Stalin made to his communist ideal.
Communism won't work, because it's human nature to be greedy. As long as there is greed...it just won't work.
Capitalism recognizes that fact, and actually rewards it. But doesn't take care of those who can't compete.
So,  I don't know.
I'm still in favor of a riff-raff commune somewhere out in the wilderness, where we can all run, play, and work together. With excellent internet access of course. 
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RexRacer
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 15:53 Post subject:
In a kibbutz you have direct democracy. All of the people have a say and everything is put to a vote. It can get kinda messy and involved, but everyone participates, kind of like old-style, small-town meeting Yankee democracy.
Same thing in the workplace context with industrial democracy. It comes down to what value you give the stakeholders (workers, community) vs the shareholders (the funders).
In every context of modern empires the shareholders, seeking to maximize their own narrow (financial) self-interests have pushed their primacy over those of the stakeholders. Consistently they've followed profit maximization abroad and, in doing so, greatly weakened their own country's standing in the world. The Spanish wealth holders sent their money to Holland, the Dutch to England, the English to the US, and guess what, the cycle's repeating itself right now under our very noses.
And the reason that total worker control frequently fails is that nothing unites the powerful (royalist, imperialist, or plain ol' capitalist) like the thought of the less-than-powerful shuffling the decks. Look at the French Revolution, the movements of 1830 and 1848 in Europe, and the way formerly bitter adversaries during World War One managed to unite real quick to send troops to help monkey wrench the Red Revolution in Russia.
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genie
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:29 Post subject:
| RexRacer wrote: | In a kibbutz you have direct democracy. All of the people have a say and everything is put to a vote. It can get kinda messy and involved, but everyone participates, kind of like old-style, small-town meeting Yankee democracy.
Same thing in the workplace context with industrial democracy. It comes down to what value you give the stakeholders (workers, community) vs the shareholders (the funders).
In every context of modern empires the shareholders, seeking to maximize their own narrow (financial) self-interests have pushed their primacy over those of the stakeholders. Consistently they've followed profit maximization abroad and, in doing so, greatly weakened their own country's standing in the world. The Spanish wealth holders sent their money to Holland, the Dutch to England, the English to the US, and guess what, the cycle's repeating itself right now under our very noses.
And the reason that total worker control frequently fails is that nothing unites the powerful (royalist, imperialist, or plain ol' capitalist) like the thought of the less-than-powerful shuffling the decks. Look at the French Revolution, the movements of 1830 and 1848 in Europe, and the way formerly bitter adversaries during World War One managed to unite real quick to send troops to help monkey wrench the Red Revolution in Russia. |
Hmmm.....this is a very interesting perspective, particularly the last part, thanks!! My thoughts on why the kibbutzim are able to hold to the tenets of true communism, based on my very limited knowledge of them, was mainly because it was a small scale population and thus easier to keep track of, as far as the corruption angle. Collaboration and cooperation are always easier to obtain when fewer people are involved. But it sounds like that's not even the half of it. Wow.
I guess that's true of all corrupt governments though, your point about revolution uniting the powerful, even if the "rebels" are the good guys, no? I'm thinking of all the places we try to send food and aid that never actually gets there because the government armies hijack the trucks and keep it for themselves. How sad.  What's the remedy, is there one?
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:32 Post subject:
| coachmarkos wrote: | I have no idea if this is on topic or what...
but I remember my History of Russia professor saying that Lenin was probably rolling over in his grave with the changes that Stalin made to his communist ideal.
Communism won't work, because it's human nature to be greedy. As long as there is greed...it just won't work.
Capitalism recognizes that fact, and actually rewards it. But doesn't take care of those who can't compete.
So, I don't know.
I'm still in favor of a riff-raff commune somewhere out in the wilderness, where we can all run, play, and work together. With excellent internet access of course. |
let's apply it to running. If you have a race where everyone gets the same award no matter how long it takes to reach the finish line. How much effort or sacrifice would you make to get there first? I for one would not forgo that steak and lobster dinner and 2 beers the night before if I get on the podium with everyone else and they say "nice job" everyone. I do taper nicely, get plenty of rest, train hard....so that I'm on that podium alone with my big prize, while "everyone" is slogging down beer.
there are communism-style runs.....there are called "fun runs" and you will not see times that Americans could be proud of. Kind of the Disney marathon type race.....woowee.....median finishing time of 6+ hours. That'll show the rest of the world that we are superior athletes
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genie
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:42 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
let's apply it to running. If you have a race where everyone gets the same award no matter how long it takes to reach the finish line. How much effort or sacrifice would you make to get there first? I for one would not forgo that steak and lobster dinner and 2 beers the night before if I get on the podium with everyone else and they say "nice job" everyone. I do taper nicely, get plenty of rest, train hard....so that I'm on that podium alone with my big prize, while "everyone" is slogging down beer. |
Yeah, but at marathons and a lot of halves, everyone there gets a finisher's medal, isn't that kind of the same thing, or no, since there are still age group awards?
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elkid
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:45 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: | let's apply it to running. If you have a race where everyone gets the same award no matter how long it takes to reach the finish line. How much effort or sacrifice would you make to get there first? I for one would not forgo that steak and lobster dinner and 2 beers the night before if I get on the podium with everyone else and they say "nice job" everyone. I do taper nicely, get plenty of rest, train hard....so that I'm on that podium alone with my big prize, while "everyone" is slogging down beer.
there are communism-style runs.....there are called "fun runs" and you will not see times that Americans could be proud of. Kind of the Disney marathon type race.....woowee.....median finishing time of 6+ hours. That'll show the rest of the world that we are superior athletes |
Look at all the sarcasm. Look at all the disdain. Wow.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:48 Post subject:
| genie wrote: |
Yeah, but at marathons and a lot of halves, everyone there gets a finisher's medal, isn't that kind of the same thing, or no, since there are still age group awards? |
yep. But I ain't going bust my butt and endure pain for a finishers medal. When the pain sets in, I'd walk until mile 26.1 and run across the line with perfect running form and I'd looked--so good. And I'd be a runner like everyone else. I'm thinking the pain would set in a little earlier each time because what the heck would be the incentive of putting in 90 mile weeks preparing?
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:50 Post subject:
| elkid wrote: |
Look at all the sarcasm. Look at all the disdain. Wow. |
look at the jealously. look at reality. wow.
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elkid
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:55 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: | | look at the jealously. look at reality. wow. |
The jealously? What does that word mean?
Your analogy is, among other things, flawed. There are plenty of people who put in high mileage weeks who will never come close to your high standards of accomplishment. High mileage does not overcome physiology and genetics. There are many 5+ hour marathoners on this website who would disagree that their ordeal was a "fun run".
How this relates to the ORIGINAL TOPIC I don't know.
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genie
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Posted: 10/26/04 - 16:56 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
yep. But I ain't going bust my butt and endure pain for a finishers medal. When the pain sets in, I'd walk until mile 26.1 and run across the line with perfect running form and I'd looked--so good. And I'd be a runner like everyone else. I'm thinking the pain would set in a little earlier each time because what the heck would be the incentive of putting in 90 mile weeks preparing? |
Although I'll fully admit I will never be as competitive or able to be as competitive as you are, I definitely see where you'd feel that way. I probably would too if I was able to place/win, which just ain't gonna happen in this lifetime. Me, I'd be happy with my finishers medal, cuz it'd be all I could do to live to the end.  But for someone who's capable of way more, I can see how that would "stick in your craw" to quote our friend the Pugster.
So I guess this is an analogy to working for your SS money vs. merely reaping the benefits, getting back to the topic?
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