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kcr
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 Posted: 09/19/02 - 12:36 Post subject: need help on speed goal
Question: if I run 200meters in 40.3 sec., 400m in 84 sec, and a comfortable mile is under 8 minutes why are my long runs so slow? I run with a group on long runs and our pace is about 10.30min/mile. Is this right? (long run is always more than 10 miles)
Should I try to go faster on the long ones?
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jrjo
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 14:56 Post subject:
I wouldn't say taking a slow long run is always a bad thing, but I do think you have the legs to be keeping those long runs under a 10 minute pace. Running with a group has so many benefits, that giving it up totally isn't worthwhile, but I'd suggest trying every other or every third week putting in your long runs at a faster pace. Or else make another day of the week a "mid-distance" long run. In my own schedule I log my long runs (10+) on Sunday, but on Friday put in a mid-distance run (7-10) and keep the pace faster than the long run pace. Just a couple ideas to try.
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megawill
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 15:11 Post subject:
How many miles are you running a week?
Are you doing any tempo runs?
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megawill
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shelflifers
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 16:39 Post subject:
How about slipping in a couple 'minute-kicks' in those long runs? Say one every mile? I've been doing that lately and I'm loving it...
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kcr
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 17:18 Post subject:
Thank you jrjo, I agree 100%.
shelflifers, I think we do that already. Kind of a fartlek thing, run fast to the fountain or the tree etc.
megawill, I do approx. 30 to 35 mpw and tempo run of around 6 miles is on tuesdays (tempo tuesday)
I was just so suprised at how fast my short distances were when I actually timed them. I can't wait to do a 5k (always have done 10k or longer races).
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megawill
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 18:08 Post subject:
| kcr wrote: |
megawill, I do approx. 30 to 35 mpw and tempo run of around 6 miles is on tuesdays (tempo tuesday)
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Well, you're definitely building a good mileage base. But as your finding out there is a big difference between running a fast mile or 2 and carrying that over to run your long run at a quick clip.
If you don't mind providing the following info, I may be able to come with a few suggestions for improving your long run pace.
When you say that your tempo run is 6 miles is that 6 miles at tempo pace or a couple of miles warm-up and cool-down at a slower pace? What pace are you running your tempo runs at? Is that pace consistent throughout your tempo effort?
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megawill
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kcr
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 18:43 Post subject:
Thanks megawill!
I warm up 1 mile, run 4 miles at about 9min/mile with a minute or two of jogging between each and cool down 1 mile.
I am VERY new to speedwork of any kind and I want to do it the right way. I have run many, many miles in the past 2 years but I feel I can really do more. I am 32, 5'5", 123lbs and weight train 2x per week.
I just started a few weeks ago with the following:
I do 4 or 5 easy miles mon, tempo on tues, lower body weights on wed, approx 6/400 on thurs, upper body weights on fri, long run sat and rest sun.(before, I'd just run w/o any plan)
I'm sorry for so much info but I'm eager for speed without injury.
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megawill
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 20:55 Post subject:
| kcr wrote: |
I'm sorry for so much info but I'm eager for speed without injury. |
No need to be sorry, the more info the better. (Hopefully you'll agree once you read my long winded response)... 
Keep in mind that the advice I'm going to give you only pertains to running your long run faster. If your goal is to run a fast 5k in the next month or two the advice I give you may be counter-productive to that goal...at least in the short run...However, I believe that this approach will give you the needed strength and endurance base to go in any direction you so desire whether that includes running 5-10Ks or Half Marathons and longer...
If your current tempo pace is truly 9 minute miles that a 10:30 pace on your long run is actually a pretty good effort. Has that pace changed either up or down since you've begun to tempo and speedwork?
Keep up with the tempo work but perhaps interchange it from week to week with a continuous tempo run. The intervals are fine but I think you'll get more bang by running quicker at a sustained and consistent tempo pace. Start out with a 20 minute sustained tempo run, with a 2 mile warmup, and concentrate on maintaining a relatively even pace throughout. Also remember to add in a couple of miles to cool down. When you can do the 20 minutes at a sustained and consistent pace then add a coulple of minutes each following week.
This is a fairly difficult workout so you need to pay close attention to your body while running these harder efforts. If you pace begins to waver dramatically, your form becomes ragged and you can't comfortably bring pace or form back on track, slow it down, do your cool down and try again next week. There is something to be said for having/developing the mental toughness to run through these things but also note that when you do, you become most prone to injury. Until you get a good feel of what it is like to run faster over longer distances be conservative.
You say that you're averaging 30-35 miles a week but I'm having a hard time making that all add up from what you've posted.
Your Schedule:
Mon -- 4-5
Tue -- 6 miles (tempo)
Wed -- x-train
Thu -- 4-5? w/6 x 400
Fri -- x-train
Sat -- 10+ long run
Sun -- rest
Total -- 25ish ??
You are currently running 4 days a week w/3 hard days. What I think is missing from your schedule that would most benefit your endurance and make your long runs easier is a mediumish long run. I'd consider trying to fit another day into your schedule of 7-8 well paced miles. Pick a reasonable pace for this run. Since you are currently running 10:30ish for your long run, maybe start out by trying to avg 10 min miles for this run and play it by ear from there. How do you fit this into your week. I'd suggest adding a light run (3-4 miles) to one of your weight training days and for now ditching the 400s. Once you build your tempo endurance to the 40-45 minute range of sustained effort, you can start alternating the 400s back into schedule every other week opposite your tempo effort. (i.e. week 1 tempo, week 2 short intervals, week 3 tempo or hills, etc).
Suggested Schedule
Mon -- 4-5 easy
Tue -- 6-8 tempo
Wed -- lower body weights
Thu -- 7-8 medium long run
Fri -- 3-4 miles easy and upper body weights
Sat -- 10-14 miles long run
Sun -- rest
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Total 30-37 mpw
Keep in mind unless you are training for a marathon there is little reason to go above the 14-15 mile range for your long run.
Consider getting a good training book. I'd highly recommend Bob Glover's 'Competitive Runners Handbook'. Glover goes over this information in detail (as well as almost any running topic you could think of) and provides you with the information you need to develop you own schedule based off you current or long term goals.
All the best...
Okay now shoot away with questions...
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megawill
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kcr
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 21:29 Post subject:
I had to read that 4 times!
I agree with everything you said, it all makes sense. My goal is faster marathon times. I've run a 5:35 and a 5:20 with no training other than long slow weekend runs and 1 or 2 midweek 5 or 6 mile runs.
I know I can do better and it makes sense that the tempo runs are better for my distances than 400meter runs. I'll do the 7 or so instead.
My lsd runs are now 14 and go up every week, Dec. 7 is a marathon. I am going for under 5 hours and your info will help.
I already do 20 min on the treadmill on weight days and I'm printing this message so I can do the rest!
Thank you so much!! 
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megawill
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 22:07 Post subject:
| kcr wrote: | I had to read that 4 times!
I agree with everything you said, it all makes sense. My goal is faster marathon times. I've run a 5:35 and a 5:20 with no training other than long slow weekend runs and 1 or 2 midweek 5 or 6 mile runs.
I know I can do better and it makes sense that the tempo runs are better for my distances than 400meter runs. I'll do the 7 or so instead.
My lsd runs are now 14 and go up every week, Dec. 7 is a marathon. I am going for under 5 hours and your info will help.
I already do 20 min on the treadmill on weight days and I'm printing this message so I can do the rest!
Thank you so much!! |
ahhh! a fellow marathoner...now I see...  Which marathon are you running?
Definitely bag the 400s, they just aren't going to do much for you during marathon training that you can't get by adding some stride-outs or fartlek work into your easy runs.
If you are running a marathon...you definitely need to get that medium long run into your schedule...shoot for adding a run that is 50-67 percent of your long run distance. For example, if you've built yourself up to 18 miles shoot for adding a mid-week from 9-12 miles...once you get above 10 on this 'medium long' run though it'll be much harder to run it at a much faster pace then your 'long, long run'...
Keep with the 10:30 group...that would give you a nice improvement over your previous time if you can sustain it over the entire marathon. Adding tempo and mid week medium long runs into your schedule should build your endurance to allow you to sustain your goal pace more comfortably and for a longer period of time...which all said and done should put your goal within easy reach...
One additional item that I originally intended to post in the first note to you but got rambling on and on (as I'm want to do when the subject is long distance running  ) and I forgot....
Anyway here is an excellent work-out that combines a little tempo and Marathon Pace that is both challenging and is also a good confidence booster. In fact I just did this work-out tonite. I'm currently tapering for the Twin Cities Marathon on Sept. 29th so the distance was less then what I'm suggesting to you but you might want to try it out.
Start out running 1 warm-up mile then run 20 minutes at a fast (10Kish) pace...take 3-5 minutes of slow running to recover and then gradually build yourself up to your marathon goal pace and hold that pace for a couple miles (2-4 miles)....To me this simulates what it's like to run MP late in the race (i.e. past the 18-20 mile mark). When you hit the MP after your legs are stiff and a bit tired from the tempo and are able to sustain that pace for a couple of miles it does wonders for the psyche....
Keep us posted on your progress...There's more then a few marathoner's on board here (Coachmarkos, Alanintx, Jrjo, Frogdoc, Flarunner to name a few) so maybe we'll get a couple of more ideas on this subject...
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megawill
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kcr
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Posted: 09/19/02 - 23:08 Post subject:
Once again thanks for the info.
I'm running the Santa Carita half on Nov. 3 and the Death Valley Borax full on Dec. 7th. I love marathons
When I first started running in Aug of 2000 I had no idea what I was doing and injured my knee- kept running on it until it hurt to even touch and needless to say I took a few forced months off. I then trained with Team in Training and now I think I'm past that level. I just really, really want to stay injury free. There is not much better in life than painfree running
Should I do the mp work out on an occaisional Tuesday in place of the tempo? Or first should I work on the sustained tempo instead of the mile intervals? Brain overload!!! But this is so much fun to be a runner!
You all inspire me. I have to hear about you race on the 29th so be sure to let me know how you do, don't forget the DETAILS!
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flarunner
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Posted: 09/20/02 - 09:38 Post subject:
Excellent advice Mega. If I may just add one thing...
Since you've had a knee problem in the recent past, be VERY careful when adding in the longer mid-week runs. Don't be in a rush to get in a bunch of mileage.
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FrogDoc
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Posted: 09/20/02 - 12:45 Post subject:
I think Mega has given you a lot of sound advice.
If you're still interested in doing interval training on Thursdays, you can do distances longer than 400s. I have been on a training schedule containing 1 and 2 mile intervals and I would be more than willing to share with you if you'd like. The catch is you can't hate my guts if you try them and puke on the track. 
My 'coach' told me that your long runs should be a lot slower than your short runs. The weeks I bump up the distance, I go slow for the first miles, then try to go a little faster at the end. This supposedly simulates how you'll feel toward the end of the race. On the stepback weeks, I run the entire 10-14 mile distance at marathon pace (which is a little faster).
I haven't run a marathon with this program yet... but mine is 20 October, so I'll let you know how it works!
GL!
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 09/22/02 - 22:08 Post subject: ????
Okay...I'm still seeing something strange about running 400s at 84 and running long runs at 10:30 pace. Are you totally rested before you run another 400? I ask....because 84 seconds is pretty darn fast. I'm doing my interval (I don't rest after after a 400, I jog slowly for 200) and I run 82s when I'm in great shape!!!! I want to tell you to bag marathons...................run 5ks!!!!!!
But okay, you're doing a marathon.....so I agree bag the 400s unless you do them with active recovery and only do that once in a while. Stick with 800s and mile repeats. I don't recommend over mile, I've done 2 mile repeats and yes once 2 1/2 and they are just too mentally draining. So you got your track workout, long run, and last a tempo-type run. I like the suggestion of kicking it down for 1 minute for each mile on a midweek longish run. There's no reason why you shouldn't be running better than 10:30 minute pace, you body just needs to test a faster pace for awhile. It will decide that it likes it
sue
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