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Sandy Cheeks
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Joined: 14 May 2002
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Location: in the city that never sleeps
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 Posted: 05/19/03 - 13:59 Post subject:
This is interesting. Do some of you believe it depends on circumstance? I think we agree that if you kill someone in self defense, it is completely different than pulling a Scott Peterson.
Does the law of any given deity parallel the legal system here on earth?
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:06 Post subject:
I believe all sins are equal, penny candy or adultery or murder.
I also believe we're all by nature sinful beings, it is our repentance that gets us to heaven.
Or bringing enough of said penny candy to pay off the angel at the gates.... 
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omega lambda
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:15 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | Well first we have to answer the question of whether or not there really is a God, heaven or hell. |
This will be the never-ending debate.
I have a real problem with repentance. So you're saying that a serial murdering psychopath has a place in heaven, if he/she repents, accepts Jesus Christ as his/her saviour before their own death? So I can be as bad as I wanna be, as long as I repent?
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Joined: 17 May 2002
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:24 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: |
I have a real problem with repentance. So you're saying that a serial murdering psychopath has a place in heaven, if he/she repents, accepts Jesus Christ as his/her saviour before their own death? So I can be as bad as I wanna be, as long as I repent? |
that's why it's such an unpopular view! Jesus taught a parable about it. A man hosted a wedding and invited all the important people to come, they didn't, so he sent his servant to invite just anyone to come and they came and sat in the important seats. The important people showed up later and were ticked because their seats were taken. Heaven is an open invitation, whoever answers it, gets in.
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Joined: 14 May 2002
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:25 Post subject:
| Sandy Cheeks wrote: | | Does the law of any given deity parallel the legal system here on earth? |
Like a theocracy? I believe Iran could be considered a theocracy among a few others (Vatican City at one point), and to my best understanding a theocracy is where the leaders are supposed to be prophets to whatever deity and they hand down laws based on this direct communication with God (or Allah or whoever in whichever case). I think. I may be way off on this too, but I believe at one point WAY back Utah was a theocratic state (before becoming part of the US) lead by mormon leader/prophet Joseph Smith. I think. dude its been a long time since world civ in high school....
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camelia bedelia
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: God's Country
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:43 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | all sin equal= in God's eyes, yes. (we put the degrees on it so we can feel better about ourselves "at least I'm not like so-and-so") I really think sin is sin, and God's grace covers it all. It's a free gift, the price has been paid. So take the gift, realize that you're not perfect and will continue to sin, God will look at the Big Picture! |
You really think stealing a candy bar from the grocery store is considered the same as killing someone? What happens if you die, with the candy bar keep you out of heaven if you haven't repented? Is so, I am soooo busted.  |
I think that sin is sin. stealing and killing are 2 of the 10 biggies we were told not to do. However, it's not the actual sin that keeps you out of heaven, it is continuing to live in a sinful way. Accept the gift of salvation and the sins are covered, you are then living in a state of grace. That means that your desire is to do the right thing, but being a human that is not always possible. Now here's the unpopular part of this view: a killer can make it into heaven. |
So if I live a good life, treat others with kindness and respect, keep my nose clean, but never repent for stealing the $.50 candy bar, I’ll go to hell, but if a mean-spirited, judgmental axe murderer repents as they are about to flip the switch, he will go to Heaven?
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:44 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | all sin equal= in God's eyes, yes. (we put the degrees on it so we can feel better about ourselves "at least I'm not like so-and-so") I really think sin is sin, and God's grace covers it all. It's a free gift, the price has been paid. So take the gift, realize that you're not perfect and will continue to sin, God will look at the Big Picture! |
You really think stealing a candy bar from the grocery store is considered the same as killing someone? What happens if you die, with the candy bar keep you out of heaven if you haven't repented? Is so, I am soooo busted. |
I think that sin is sin. stealing and killing are 2 of the 10 biggies we were told not to do. However, it's not the actual sin that keeps you out of heaven, it is continuing to live in a sinful way. Accept the gift of salvation and the sins are covered, you are then living in a state of grace. That means that your desire is to do the right thing, but being a human that is not always possible. Now here's the unpopular part of this view: a killer can make it into heaven. |
So if I live a good life, treat others with kindness and respect, keep my nose clean, but never repent for stealing the $.50 candy bar, I’ll go to hell, but if a mean-spirited, judgmental axe murderer repents as they are about to flip the switch, he will go to Heaven? |
yes.
re·pent (ri-pent?) verb
re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
verb, intransitive
1.To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2.To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3.To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
verb, transitive
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret.
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BamBam
Member
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Joined: 05 Sep 2002
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:46 Post subject: That doesn't look so good
You'll go to LIMBO
anyone ever watch Grim and Evil on Cartoon Network???????
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genie
Master of Prissface
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Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 16194
Location: Finding serenity one day at a time
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:47 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | Well first we have to answer the question of whether or not there really is a God, heaven or hell. |
This will be the never-ending debate.
I have a real problem with repentance. So you're saying that a serial murdering psychopath has a place in heaven, if he/she repents, accepts Jesus Christ as his/her saviour before their own death? So I can be as bad as I wanna be, as long as I repent? |
I was thinking that same thing, OL, and that's one of the big problems that I have with organized religion. You can be a good Christian, go to church whenever you're supposed to, never break any rules, and spread the good word, and get in.....and I can be a child-beater, cheat on my hubby, steal from my employer and just generally be a total assclown and all I have to do is say, DOH!!! Sorry, dude....I f-ed up!" and I get in too? So where's the motivation to be a good person and live the right way?
I personally, and this is just me, agree with CB. I do believe in God, or some life force out there doing the string pulling, but I haven't yet found a religion whose dogma works for me. I probably believe in karma way more than any other concept, and in that respect, the criminal is going to pay for his/her sins---whether it means coming back and doing it over, or coming back into a worse situation than you were in the last go-round. The part of that I haven't come to terms with yet is--do you ever finally learn all of your lessons and stop coming back? And then where do you go??
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BamBam
Member
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Joined: 05 Sep 2002
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 14:53 Post subject:
Some of the MOST Christian of people would be the first to stab you in the back for a nickel. While I was raised Catholic and still attend services, I tend to be very fed up, when priests/ministers (whichever religion or demoniation) are protected by the hierarchy for the better of the church/organization.
I think if you have done something like maliciously kill someone, then repentance will not automatically lead you into heaven.
Anyway.....
I got Jimmies!
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camelia bedelia
Member
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: God's Country
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 15:05 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: |
yes.
re·pent (ri-pent?) verb
re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
verb, intransitive
1.To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2.To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3.To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
verb, transitive
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret. |
But is accepting Christ at the last minute out of fear really the same as living a life that is an example of what he taught? And what about those that profess they have accepted Christ as their Savior and say all the right things, but in reality are unforgiving, judgmental people? Do they get in because the talked the talk or do they also have to walk the walk?
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kristin31
Member
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Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 8045
Location: Caught in the crossfire of childhood and stardom
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 15:07 Post subject:
| ShannonG wrote: | | I rarely talk religion with anyone because my views are so complicated and un-normal I barely understand them myself. |
 
Sort of a mish-mash of Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism...
I think if you pretty much try to not hurt others or yourself deliberately you're doing OK.
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genie
Master of Prissface
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Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 16194
Location: Finding serenity one day at a time
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 15:09 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | cherylpf wrote: |
yes.
re·pent (ri-pent?) verb
re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
verb, intransitive
1.To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite.
2.To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior.
3.To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
verb, transitive
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. To cause to feel remorse or regret. |
But is accepting Christ at the last minute out of fear really the same as living a life that is an example of what he taught? And what about those that profess they have accepted Christ as their Savior and say all the right things, but in reality are unforgiving, judgmental people? Do they get in because the talked the talk or do they also have to walk the walk? |
Good point!! It sounds like, from what Keltic says, (and correct me if I'm wrong, Steve) that it's all about the talk. Which I find hypocritical, to say the least. I do believe that no one is perfect, but that "I'm not perfect, just forgiven" stuff just seems to be license to do whatever you want and not have any consequences.
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Gogirlgo
Member
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 15:10 Post subject:
Well, another part of it is what qualifies as sin. I mean, to a certain extent we all understand wrong but remember when we had the amnesty on my tribe and that it's supposed to follow 613 commandments, some of which have to do with hair? Surely not all the menfolk reading this are out growing their peyos, those curly sideburns. But if that was your particular shtick, you'd have to or you'd be sinful. So how does God account for the fact that we don't all have the same sense of sin?
If some people think sex is a sin and some really don't, are the ones who don't going south and the ones who do going north, but only if they abstain, or poke like rabbits and then later atone for it?
Finally, is the only way to understand this to say that as mortals, we're just not smart enough to get it?
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Joined: 17 May 2002
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Location: under the weather
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Posted: 05/19/03 - 15:12 Post subject:
| BamBam wrote: | Some of the MOST Christian of people would be the first to stab you in the back for a nickel. While I was raised Catholic and still attend services, I tend to be very fed up, when priests/ministers (whichever religion or demoniation) are protected by the hierarchy for the better of the church/organization.
I think if you have done something like maliciously kill someone, then repentance will not automatically lead you into heaven.
Anyway.....
I got Jimmies! |
and I'm guessing that we hear a lot of repenting from such people, but do we know their true intent? I agree with BB that Christians can be some of the most un-Christian people you'd ever meet, and that many who do not participate in organized religion have a special place reserved just for them in heaven. The teacher who has a problem with me today is a "very Good Christian" prays before he eats his lunch, makes a big deal of everyone knowing how moral a person he is. I've been stabbed a couple of times by him.
I suppose I'm saying that my God is a very big God with enough compassion and love for all of his creation, even what we agree would be the absolute worst of sinners. I am grateful for this because I don't know how bad I could be, but I'm sure that I am never as good as I can be.
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