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Gogirlgo
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 Posted: 09/03/06 - 12:30 Post subject: death penalty for soldiers
I'm curious about how the pro-death penalty, pro-military people in RR feel about this, if the sodiers are convicted. Anyone?
| Quote: |
Officer calls for death penalty in Iraq slayings
4 U.S. soldiers claim self-defense
September 3, 2006
BY ALICIA A. CALDWELL
ASSOCIATED PRESS
An Army investigator has recommended that four soldiers accused of murder in a raid in Iraq face the death penalty if convicted, according to a report obtained Saturday by the Associated Press.
Lt. Col. James P. Daniel Jr. concluded the slayings were premeditated and warranted the death sentence based on evidence heard at an August hearing. The case will be forwarded to Army officials, who will decide whether Daniel's recommendation should be followed.
The soldiers, all from the Ft. Campbell, Ky.-based 101st Airborne Division's 187th Infantry Regiment, are accused of killing three Iraqi men taken from a house May 9, on an island outside Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad.
Staff Sgt. Raymond L. Girouard, Spec. William B. Hunsaker, Pfc. Corey R. Clagett and Spec. Juston R. Graber have claimed they were ordered to "kill all military-age males" during the raid. According to some soldiers' statements, they were told the target was an Al Qaeda training camp.
Hunsaker told investigators that he and Clagett were attacked by the men and shot them in self-defense. Clagett said he was hit in the face, and Hunsaker said he was stabbed during the attack.
Prosecutors argue the soldiers conspired to kill the men and then altered the scene to fit their story. They contend Girouard stabbed Hunsaker as part of the killing plot.
Clagett, Girouard and Hunsaker also are accused of threatening to kill another soldier who saw the slayings. Girouard, the most senior soldier charged, faces several additional charges, including sexual harassment and carrying a personal weapon on duty.
The four are jailed in Kuwait.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 09/03/06 - 16:12 Post subject:
I know I'm going to sound totally contradictory here, but I oppose capital punishment for U.S. troops in a combat zone under all circumstances except for treason or murder against other U.S. troops. Combat zones do weird things to men's psyche and while I support punishing those who get out of line, I'm not willing to execute U.S. soldiers for crimes committed in a combat zone. The government put them in that location so I give them some deference.
On the other hand, if the same crimes were committed in the U.S. against other persons, I would support the death penalty with no qualms. In a civilian context, if someone commits premedicated murder they have also already stated they believe in the death penalty so I have no qualms returning the favor on behalf of the family of the victim(s). You can call it revenge or justice. Capital punishment is one of those items I disagree with most of my liberal friends on.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 09/03/06 - 20:35 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | I know I'm going to sound totally contradictory here, but I oppose capital punishment for U.S. troops in a combat zone under all circumstances except for treason or murder against other U.S. troops. Combat zones do weird things to men's psyche and while I support punishing those who get out of line, I'm not willing to execute U.S. soldiers for crimes committed in a combat zone. The government put them in that location so I give them some deference.
On the other hand, if the same crimes were committed in the U.S. against other persons, I would support the death penalty with no qualms. In a civilian context, if someone commits premedicated murder they have also already stated they believe in the death penalty so I have no qualms returning the favor on behalf of the family of the victim(s). You can call it revenge or justice. Capital punishment is one of those items I disagree with most of my liberal friends on. |
Hm. I don't favor the death penalty under any circumstance (surprise!) but I think differently from you on this in a different way. I agree that war is havoc on a person's psyche. But the military is rooted in the morality of killing as a necessity and thus the main legitimate argument for the death penalty, deterrence, just isn't appropriate.
I do think, just as I do for those who commit unspeakable crimes here, that locking one up and throwing away the key forever is appropriate, and of course stripping of any military honor/connection. I also think the victims have a right to sue for damages and in my just scenario, the individual actors would be forced to pay at least a portion of those damages.
The death penalty is only about revenge, and revenge has no place in a civil society.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 09/03/06 - 20:49 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | The death penalty is only about revenge, and revenge has no place in a civil society. |
If it was possible to lock the perpetrator up in a solitary cell with no TV, phone, visitors or other privileges until they died a natural death I wouldn't be in favor of the death penalty. But the problem is such a sentence would be considered cruel and unusual punishment by U.S. courts regardless of how cruel and unusual the victim died as a result of the murderer's actions.
Therefore, if a member of my family is killed in a senseless act of murder, I want revenge, whether or not society calls it justice. It just seems unreal to me the number of murders just here in Georgia, let alone nationally that we simply lock prisoners up for with health benefits, legal services, TV and exercise privileges. And quite often, even with so called "life" sentences they are parolled as years go by and the crime is forgotten by all but the victim's family.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 09/03/06 - 21:28 Post subject:
Right. I think the gov can't have it both ways, but apparently I'm wrong b/c it can and does. The type of lock-up we're discussing is considered 'cruel and unusual' but it allows life, whereas execution doesn't. It's far crueler but it's allowed. Such a strange way we have of doing things.
In a way, it's heartening that even in the military, where killing is legitimate under a whole host of circumstances, there is a line past which we won't allow our soldiers to go.
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andydp
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Posted: 09/04/06 - 15:47 Post subject:
Unfortunately, the Soldiers in question have violated a sacred trust: avoid doing harm non-combatants. This is written in that "quaint" (according to our current AG Gonzales) document called the Geneva Convention. Its also mentioned in the Universal Code of Military Justice (UCMJ).
Lets get a bit real here ok ? The investigator has recomended the death penalty. This is about step three of an unbelievably long process. Just like in the civilian world, this will be negotiated down.
Do I think some consideration will be made in light of the circumstances ? Of course. Not one of us here can re live what those Soldiers went through. Maybe there were "orders" but as Soldiers they have to obey the "lawful orders" of those appointed over us. Its a bit hard in combat to say to a commander, "that's not really a 'lawful' order sir..."
Lets let the system work. The UCMJ provides many more rights to military than civilian courts do. I am certain all available avenues will be taken. Just for an example, the issue can be tried in a Military Court with a real Military Judge presiding, (one judge I know personally is a Federal Magistrate in civilian life) or it can be tried via a Courts Martial. Once the trial is over it goes to the Military Appellate court system. After the military appeal system is used, the case can start its way throught the Federal Court system eventually leading to the Supreme Court.
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copteacher
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Posted: 09/05/06 - 17:33 Post subject:
If the UCMJ calls for it, then it should be done. they will be tried, evidence heard and convicted with sentence passed. If death is the sentence then may God have mercy on their souls.
The death penalty has been used in militaries since large scale organized armies were formed.
Anyone who breaks the law and the punishment for that law is death, then a sentence of death should be allowed.
Anyone whom has served or understands military culture knows that the military has no place for those who disgrace it. The difference between the US military and other people in the world is that we will investigate those who do wrong and punish.
If people only held up the terrorist and other thugs around the world to the same standard this would be a better world.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 09/05/06 - 19:37 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: | | If people only held up the terrorist and other thugs around the world to the same standard this would be a better world. |
Which is a major reason I'm not willing to support the death penalty against U.S. soldiers in a combat zone with the exception of the two circumstances I noted above.
Even the military is not exactly fair in its death sentences. Let's review, how many officers are being punished for Abu Grabe (sp?). The same holds true in capital offenses in the military. RHIP.
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