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phillycat wrote:

sonnylax wrote:

phillycat wrote:

Sigh.............................................................

That was just an example. My point is that a wall that costs billions to build will not solve the problem. They will find a way around/over/under it. My point was not the number of people coming in and from where.

Then let them find another way around the wall. Hope they brush up on their swimming abilities. You are naive if you think they are going to fly over or dig under a wall en mass.

My POINT is that the wall is not the answer. Get it? Got it? Good. Sheesh..............

If a wall isn't the answer, what do you believe the answer is?

thegman wrote:

phillycat wrote:

sonnylax wrote:

phillycat wrote:

Then let them find another way around the wall. Hope they brush up on their swimming abilities. You are naive if you think they are going to fly over or dig under a wall en mass.

My POINT is that the wall is not the answer. Get it? Got it? Good. Sheesh..............

If a wall isn't the answer, what do you believe the answer is?

sonnylax wrote:

Gogirlgo wrote:

OK, Sonny, let's say you're right. We erect a wall between us and Mexico and it effectively keeps out Mexicans. And let's even say there are no foreign-policy ramifications from our doing this and everything is fine. OK?

Now we don't have the costs that the individual states like AZ and TX had to bear and we don't have to put as much money into border control, although we still need some.

Now what? Are the problems over? Do we not still have a huge disparity in wages? Do we not still have poorly written legislation? Do we not still have undocumented aliens? Do we not still have a large Hispanic voting bloc in California that can and does base its voting on impact to Mexico? Do we not still have a huge underclass in this country? Are Philippinos getting processed in better time? Do we still have absolute crap requirements regarding who qualifies for asylum?

What precisely is the net gain from the wall? Since we have NO IDEA how many people are coming in every night, we have NO IDEA what the net gain will be, and I'm here to tell you that given how multi-faceted the whole issue is, in the scheme of things, the issue of a wall winds up being small potatoes.

Who cares about the foreign policy "ramifications"? Do you think we should really give two seconds of thought to what Europe/Asia/Africa think about the US securing our own border with Mexico? That is a non-issue, not ever worthy of consideration.

We built the wall on American soil, it's a non-issue with Mexico too. How can they argue that we don't have the right to build a wall to secure our own border? The Mexican govt. is encouraging people to come here and send money back to their home country.

A dollar spent on the wall now is worth more then numerous dollars spend down the road for issues like health care & education for illegal immigrants.

"Our problems" aren't "their problems." Even if money was no object, it isn't the American taxpayers's obligation or responsibility to house, feed, educate, or provide health care for Mexicans. And until we can conrol that border with some degree of certainity, any immigration discussion is just a joke.

Almost everything you've written here doesn't address my question, which was: how does the wall change most of the problems w/undocumented aliens in this country? In so doing, you're proving my point.

Gogirlgo wrote:

sonnylax wrote:

Gogirlgo wrote:

Uh, wouldn't it kind of slow down the migration of the illegals? The vast open border would be no more. Getting into this country illegally would become infinitely more difficult although obviously not impossible. It might even trigger those who really wanted to be here to do it legally....

A wall would be just one step to solving the problem of "undocumented aliens" as you like to call them. Stopping the flow is a start. Sending the illegals already here back to Mexico or else legalizing them in some manner such that they pay taxes would be another step. Cracking down on the companies that hire them w/o proper identification is a third step in the process.

There is no simple answer at this point. The situation has been allowed to fester for a long time with most people looking the other way. We have to start somewhere in controlling the influx of illegal aliens.

the wall would be a lot like the concealed handgun carry laws that are passed from time to time.

They show a mindset to actually do something about the problem

Sonny posited the wall as though it were the One True Answer. I'm pointing out that it's not.

Rob for the last time: they pay taxes, too.

WTR: A mindset doesn't do squat and you know it. If Clinton came up with a mindset instead of a solution, you'd have skewered him and rightly so. Don't act like anyone should settle for a mindset instead of an answer.

Gogirlgo wrote:

Sonny posited the wall as though it were the One True Answer. I'm pointing out that it's not.

All I ever said was that a wall was a huge first step in resolving the problem.

Gogirlgo wrote:

Rob for the last time: they pay taxes, too.

And your point is what? That they are entitled to benefits and voting rights after illegally coming to this country?

Gogirlgo wrote:

Sonny posited the wall as though it were the One True Answer. I'm pointing out that it's not.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked phillycat: If a wall isn't the answer, what do you believe the answer is?

of course symbols mean something - the constrution of a big honking wall would be a clear message that you may not sneak in illegally.

And how the heck are they paying taxes other than sales tax? I think I really like the Fair Tax now - illegals would still get stuck paying taxes but wouldn't be able to collect the tax prebates

thegman wrote:

Gogirlgo wrote:

Sonny posited the wall as though it were the One True Answer. I'm pointing out that it's not.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked phillycat: If a wall isn't the answer, what do you believe the answer is?

I think it's a mult-faceted problem for which there is not one neat solution. Examine the policy behind current statute to see if it still fits, for one. Why Cubans but not Haitians, for example? Look at trends of where people are coming from and alter the caps on those countries. Deal with he backlog of people who have waited for decades to do this the right way. We constantly hear about how we don't want to reward people who do it the wrong way, well fine. What are we doing to ensure there's some incentive to do it the right way? Oh right, not much. Decide whether IRCA is fine the way it is, or consider the ramifications of forcing employers to become detectives. Decide that we'll do this right, but be prepared for it to take 10-15 years. Distinguish b/w seasonal workers and people who actually want to live here fulltime. Stop asking local popo to understand complext immigration law so that if a cop pulls someone over who is in between statuses (but legitimate), he won't be thrown in jail. Make departments like the IRS and USCIS (former INS) talk to each other. Fund border control federally. What incentive would a state have to continually wizz its money away on that instead of meeting the needs of its citizens? Make visa dissemination happen at the consulate of the home country only. Make asylee restrictions fairer. If someone commits a crime, don't put them in jail only to deport them later, choose one or the other.

In short, there is lots that can be done to remedy several parts of the problem.

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