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phillycat
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 Posted: 04/14/06 - 11:51 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | phillycat wrote: | Do you honestly think that building a wall is going to keep people out and solve the problem?????
I find this line of thinking incredibly short sighted. |
Absolutely. I think a wall between Mexico and the US will preventing hundreds of illegals from entering this country on foot on a daily basis. I don't think it will resolve the issue completely, but it should go a very long way.
What is short sighted about that? It's a very healthy first step to resolve our immigration problem. |
If an ocean doesn't keep them out (think Cuba, Haiti etc...) then why would a wall. This is an economic problem that will not be solve by building a wall. The gov't thought that the answer was years ago to make them cross through deadly deserts. That didn't work and neither will the wall.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 12:56 Post subject:
| phillycat wrote: | | If an ocean doesn't keep them out (think Cuba, Haiti etc...) then why would a wall. This is an economic problem that will not be solve by building a wall. The gov't thought that the answer was years ago to make them cross through deadly deserts. That didn't work and neither will the wall. |
Have 11+ million people illegally come to the US from Cuba or Haiti? The illegal immigration from those two countries is miniscule compared with the thousands that come here every week from Mexico.
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phillycat
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 13:41 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | phillycat wrote: | | If an ocean doesn't keep them out (think Cuba, Haiti etc...) then why would a wall. This is an economic problem that will not be solve by building a wall. The gov't thought that the answer was years ago to make them cross through deadly deserts. That didn't work and neither will the wall. |
Have 11+ million people illegally come to the US from Cuba or Haiti? The illegal immigration from those two countries is miniscule compared with the thousands that come here every week from Mexico. |
Sigh.............................................................
That was just an example. My point is that a wall that costs billions to build will not solve the problem. They will find a way around/over/under it. My point was not the number of people coming in and from where.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 14:58 Post subject:
| phillycat wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | phillycat wrote: | | If an ocean doesn't keep them out (think Cuba, Haiti etc...) then why would a wall. This is an economic problem that will not be solve by building a wall. The gov't thought that the answer was years ago to make them cross through deadly deserts. That didn't work and neither will the wall. |
Have 11+ million people illegally come to the US from Cuba or Haiti? The illegal immigration from those two countries is miniscule compared with the thousands that come here every week from Mexico. |
Sigh.............................................................
That was just an example. My point is that a wall that costs billions to build will not solve the problem. They will find a way around/over/under it. My point was not the number of people coming in and from where. |
Exactly. Treat the problem, not the symptom.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 15:19 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | Exactly. Treat the problem, not the symptom. |
And what problem is that exactly?
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 15:33 Post subject:
| phillycat wrote: | Sigh.............................................................
That was just an example. My point is that a wall that costs billions to build will not solve the problem. They will find a way around/over/under it. My point was not the number of people coming in and from where. |
Then let them find another way around the wall. Hope they brush up on their swimming abilities. You are naive if you think they are going to fly over or dig under a wall en mass.
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tdassow
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 16:13 Post subject:
You go back far enough, the Native Americans can tell us to get lost.
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j1miller
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 16:24 Post subject:
| tdassow wrote: | | You go back far enough, the Native Americans can tell us to get lost. |
Thus my mixed feelings.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 16:30 Post subject:
| tdassow wrote: | | You go back far enough, the Native Americans can tell us to get lost. |
And if you go back further then that, the Dinosaurs can tell everyone to get lost. What's the point?
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j1miller
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 16:35 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | tdassow wrote: | | You go back far enough, the Native Americans can tell us to get lost. |
And if you go back further then that, the Dinosaurs can tell everyone to get lost. What's the point? |
I think the point is that at some point all of us had an ancestor that was an immigrant. (At least theoretically, unless you are 100% American Indian).
Our ancestors were given a chance to live here and start a life for themselves... that is what these people want.
This is what I struggle with. We obviously cannot let everyone in. There are not enough resources or jobs for everyone, but how do we choose. Who chooses? I really, really struggle with this.
OK, this is more than I wanted to say. So, please, be gentle.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 16:44 Post subject:
| j1miller wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | tdassow wrote: | | You go back far enough, the Native Americans can tell us to get lost. |
And if you go back further then that, the Dinosaurs can tell everyone to get lost. What's the point? |
I think the point is that at some point all of us had an ancestor that was an immigrant. (At least theoretically, unless you are 100% American Indian).
Our ancestors were given a chance to live here and start a life for themselves... that is what these people want.
This is what I struggle with. We obviously cannot let everyone in. There are not enough resources or jobs for everyone, but how do we choose. Who chooses? I really, really struggle with this.
OK, this is more than I wanted to say. So, please, be gentle. |
Thanks for discussing what I've maintained all along.
America admits more immigrants that anyone else in the world. There are legal ways to come to this country and there are illegal ways. We can't take in the entire world (or even all or part of Mexico). We simply have to regain control of our borders.
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phillycat
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Posted: 04/14/06 - 18:46 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | phillycat wrote: | Sigh.............................................................
That was just an example. My point is that a wall that costs billions to build will not solve the problem. They will find a way around/over/under it. My point was not the number of people coming in and from where. |
Then let them find another way around the wall. Hope they brush up on their swimming abilities. You are naive if you think they are going to fly over or dig under a wall en mass. |
My POINT is that the wall is not the answer. Get it? Got it? Good. Sheesh..............
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/15/06 - 08:04 Post subject:
| phillycat wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | phillycat wrote: | Sigh.............................................................
That was just an example. My point is that a wall that costs billions to build will not solve the problem. They will find a way around/over/under it. My point was not the number of people coming in and from where. |
Then let them find another way around the wall. Hope they brush up on their swimming abilities. You are naive if you think they are going to fly over or dig under a wall en mass. |
My POINT is that the wall is not the answer. Get it? Got it? Good. Sheesh.............. |
A wall would be the answer and would substantially slow the vast majority illegal immigration to this country. A physical barrier, properly constructed and maintained, would prevent the thousands of people that run across the border on a daily/weekly basis from Mexico. It wouldn't stop it 100%, but it would effectively kill most of it.
The people that are coming wouldn't have the means to go around a wall. Just like most of the Cubans and Haitians don't have the means to build a cruise ship to get to land in Florida.
Frankly, you are being short sighted to not consider all options including a a wall. Once we regain control of our border to the South, we can have a true discussion on current/future immigration reform & policies. Until then, too much water keeps leaking through the dam.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/15/06 - 10:58 Post subject:
OK, Sonny, let's say you're right. We erect a wall between us and Mexico and it effectively keeps out Mexicans. And let's even say there are no foreign-policy ramifications from our doing this and everything is fine. OK?
Now we don't have the costs that the individual states like AZ and TX had to bear and we don't have to put as much money into border control, although we still need some.
Now what? Are the problems over? Do we not still have a huge disparity in wages? Do we not still have poorly written legislation? Do we not still have undocumented aliens? Do we not still have a large Hispanic voting bloc in California that can and does base its voting on impact to Mexico? Do we not still have a huge underclass in this country? Are Philippinos getting processed in better time? Do we still have absolute crap requirements regarding who qualifies for asylum?
What precisely is the net gain from the wall? Since we have NO IDEA how many people are coming in every night, we have NO IDEA what the net gain will be, and I'm here to tell you that given how multi-faceted the whole issue is, in the scheme of things, the issue of a wall winds up being small potatoes.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/15/06 - 11:17 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | OK, Sonny, let's say you're right. We erect a wall between us and Mexico and it effectively keeps out Mexicans. And let's even say there are no foreign-policy ramifications from our doing this and everything is fine. OK?
Now we don't have the costs that the individual states like AZ and TX had to bear and we don't have to put as much money into border control, although we still need some.
Now what? Are the problems over? Do we not still have a huge disparity in wages? Do we not still have poorly written legislation? Do we not still have undocumented aliens? Do we not still have a large Hispanic voting bloc in California that can and does base its voting on impact to Mexico? Do we not still have a huge underclass in this country? Are Philippinos getting processed in better time? Do we still have absolute crap requirements regarding who qualifies for asylum?
What precisely is the net gain from the wall? Since we have NO IDEA how many people are coming in every night, we have NO IDEA what the net gain will be, and I'm here to tell you that given how multi-faceted the whole issue is, in the scheme of things, the issue of a wall winds up being small potatoes. |
Who cares about the foreign policy "ramifications"? Do you think we should really give two seconds of thought to what Europe/Asia/Africa think about the US securing our own border with Mexico? That is a non-issue, not ever worthy of consideration.
We built the wall on American soil, it's a non-issue with Mexico too. How can they argue that we don't have the right to build a wall to secure our own border? The Mexican govt. is encouraging people to come here and send money back to their home country.
A dollar spent on the wall now is worth more then numerous dollars spend down the road for issues like health care & education for illegal immigrants.
"Our problems" aren't "their problems." Even if money was no object, it isn't the American taxpayers's obligation or responsibility to house, feed, educate, or provide health care for Mexicans. And until we can conrol that border with some degree of certainity, any immigration discussion is just a joke.
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