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wanttorun100
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Location: Just to the right of Atilla the Hun!
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 Posted: 04/06/05 - 07:06 Post subject:
| Running Brewer wrote: | | I have seen things from the other side, and there is no way I would join those guys. With all the time I have spent in Mexico in the past two years(so far this year 61 out of 93 days) and the people I have met I understand their desire to come here. Then again I may be a bit biased nowadays. Just this past week, I met a few mexicans who where here illegally in the past and got sent back. All they want is the ability to make a decent living and support there families. I'd like to put the "minutemen" in the same situation that the "illegals" have and see what they do. |
But there are legal ways to come into this country thay have no right to come here illegally.
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sonnylax
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Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 07:36 Post subject:
| Running Brewer wrote: | | I have seen things from the other side, and there is no way I would join those guys. With all the time I have spent in Mexico in the past two years(so far this year 61 out of 93 days) and the people I have met I understand their desire to come here. Then again I may be a bit biased nowadays. Just this past week, I met |
I understand their "desire" to come here to. Doesn't mean they are entitled or eligble to do so illegally.
I "desire" to draw a seven figure annual salary for nothing. Doesn't mean I'm entitled or eligble to do so.
Again I raise the question - What exactly are the minutemen doing that is illegal according to US laws?
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Gogirlgo
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Location: No deal, stalker.
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 11:10 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: |
I understand their "desire" to come here to. Doesn't mean they are entitled or eligble to do so illegally.
I "desire" to draw a seven figure annual salary for nothing. Doesn't mean I'm entitled or eligble to do so.
Again I raise the question - What exactly are the minutemen doing that is illegal according to US laws? |
I don't want a bunch of pretend policemen 'helping out' the system (if that's what you'd call a group that would turn in one of its own for the dangerous crime of urinating), I want actual policemen who are trained (and presumably knowledgeable about small details like 4th Amendment rights, etc.) Whether they're illegal isn't the issue. It's whether they're actually helping.
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robp
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Joined: 26 Jul 2002
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Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 11:16 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
I don't want a bunch of pretend policemen 'helping out' the system (if that's what you'd call a group that would turn in one of its own for the dangerous crime of urinating), I want actual policemen who are trained (and presumably knowledgeable about small details like 4th Amendment rights, etc.) Whether they're illegal isn't the issue. It's whether they're actually helping. |
There are neighborhood watches, block watches, etc. that work to keep crime off city streets. Are border watches that much different?
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copteacher
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Joined: 08 Jun 2002
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Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 11:49 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
I don't want a bunch of pretend policemen 'helping out' the system (if that's what you'd call a group that would turn in one of its own for the dangerous crime of urinating), I want actual policemen who are trained (and presumably knowledgeable about small details like 4th Amendment rights, etc.) Whether they're illegal isn't the issue. It's whether they're actually helping. |
They could be briefed on the basics but they are not making arrests or from what I know even confronting them.
The fourth amendment, for search and seizure, the private citizen actually has more rights than the police for search and seizure.
If these men/women get one person they are helping. They have also helped by bringing attention and getting 500 more agents assigned to the area. I still say good for them.
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sonnylax
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Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 12:07 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | I don't want a bunch of pretend policemen 'helping out' the system (if that's what you'd call a group that would turn in one of its own for the dangerous crime of urinating), I want actual policemen who are trained (and presumably knowledgeable about small details like 4th Amendment rights, etc.) Whether they're illegal isn't the issue. It's whether they're actually helping. |
I hope you aren't proposing extending US Constitutional protected rights (i.e. 4th amendment) to non-US citizens.
You seem to favor that the US extend our rights to non-US citizens, yet we are suppose to defer to International Law when it comes to matters of national security & world affairs. Which is it go? (Sorry in advance if I went off topic.)
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 14:17 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: |
The fourth amendment, for search and seizure, the private citizen actually has more rights than the police for search and seizure.
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More rights than the police? Could you elaborate?
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 14:20 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: |
I hope you aren't proposing extending US Constitutional protected rights (i.e. 4th amendment) to non-US citizens.
You seem to favor that the US extend our rights to non-US citizens, yet we are suppose to defer to International Law when it comes to matters of national security & world affairs. Which is it go? (Sorry in advance if I went off topic.) |
Are you suggesting we treat people who are not yet citizens in a substantially different, and lesser, manner than we treat US citizens? Your idea would cover diplomats, those with a green card, etc. We should bust into their homes at night, we shouldn't give them the right to counsel, or Mirandize them. This is your vision?
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 14:24 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: |
yet we are suppose to defer to International Law when it comes to matters of national security & world affairs. |
Yep, all countries, when it's a question of their own laws in conflict with international law, are supposed to defer to int'l law. In the same vein, if a state law conflicts with a relevant federal law, fed wins.
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copteacher
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Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 15:57 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
More rights than the police? Could you elaborate? |
the police are held to a higher standard for search and seizure. Search warrants etc. The average citizen would know about search and seizure but not all of the legalities like the police.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 15:59 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Yep, all countries, when it's a question of their own laws in conflict with international law, are supposed to defer to int'l law. In the same vein, if a state law conflicts with a relevant federal law, fed wins. |
I don't think that is the standard a US has followed. They may use as a guide but for the most part we make and follow our own laws.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 16:31 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: |
the police are held to a higher standard for search and seizure. Search warrants etc. The average citizen would know about search and seizure but not all of the legalities like the police. |
Don't want to go off-topic but you're not saying that a search doesn't occur without a search warrant, are you? The average citizen (who is in police custody) barely even knows he has the right to counsel.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 17:04 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Don't want to go off-topic but you're not saying that a search doesn't occur without a search warrant, are you? The average citizen (who is in police custody) barely even knows he has the right to counsel. |
Every citizen we arrest is more than aware. They tell us their rights all of the time.
We have to tell them their rights.
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sonnylax
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Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 21:14 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Yep, all countries, when it's a question of their own laws in conflict with international law, are supposed to defer to int'l law. In the same vein, if a state law conflicts with a relevant federal law, fed wins. |
Sorry I will pass on that. Call me the big, fat, ugly american if you will. I won't put American security before "International Law." Some country has to be the No. 1 kid on the block, might as well be the "Land of the Free & Home of the Brave."
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sonnylax
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Posted: 04/06/05 - 21:22 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | Are you suggesting we treat people who are not yet citizens in a substantially different, and lesser, manner than we treat US citizens? Your idea would cover diplomats, those with a green card, etc. We should bust into their homes at night, we shouldn't give them the right to counsel, or Mirandize them. This is your vision? |
So folks that are flagrantly violating US immigration laws = "not yet citizens." Diplomats don't enter this country illegally. People with green cards have a right to be here.
The US Constitution protects US Citizens. Nothing more, nothing less. I would prefer we not extend it to non-US Citizens.
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