What have you notice that's missing from (see inside)
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jrjo
Gone Fishin
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: Lake Wobegon, MN
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 Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:22 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | omega lambda wrote: | | How many of us grew up with a working father and stay-at-home mother? How many of us grew up with two working parents? Sometimes, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but I think jrjo has a point that parents are the biggest influence to children, yet if both of them work, the parents' sphere of influence shrinks, and someone else's increases. Add to that, that two working parents (or a single working parent) have a lot of work to do when they are home so that their attention is divided, maybe kidlets ARE learning too much from television, books, peers and whoever. |
[HIJACK]
And we can thank our imperial federal government for a higher tax load than our parents and grandparents paid in their day forcing more parents to work outside of the home. If taxes were lower, families would have more income to spend on themselves and more parents wouldn't be forced to work to generate income.
[/HIJACK] |
Is that necessarily true? I work in a predominately female office. I am only one of two, 'one' income families here out of 25. Of all the mothers working (or two-income fathers for that matter), they all drive pretty nice cars (nice payments alongside), help keep up some big mortgage payments, pay mondo daycare costs and judging by the UPS drops everyday, fashion isn't coming outta spare change. I don't think it's taxes that make both mom and dad work, it seems like consumerism is more oft the case to me.
Last edited by jrjo on 06/10/04 - 12:30; edited 1 time in total
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:29 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: | | cherylpf wrote: | | Where does this sense of entitlement come from in kids? (I'm asking) Why does this younger generation feel they can dictate whatever they want? That they have power? That they should or shouldn't do something strictly because that is the way they want it? In my eyes (or experience as a 'kid') I didn't have any 'rights' until I was on my own. It was all my mom and dad and their rules. If I didn't like it, well I could cry myself to sleep at night or I could deal with it and I never thought otherwise. I guess I don't understand this new attitude or where its from. |
And I would consider you to be a part of a generation that has those attitudes. Would you agree? How do some of the folks in your age group think/behave? And yet you're not that way, and from what you say here, it's because of what you learned from your parents. |
Thank you, I hope I'm not that way. I do attribute it 100% to my parents. My mom was at home until I was in school. I do think I might be on the fringe of that group though yes. I see this entitlement mentality so much more in kids younger than myself though (maybe thats because we have grown up? but I don't think so). And I think you might be on to something with the daycare/1 working parent thing. I do wonder about this in some 2 working parent scenarios (definitely not all 2 working parent families by any means), especially after working at a daycare through college and seeing a couple kids who were there from 6am to 6pm daily who were developing so-called 'behavior disorders' when from my untrained eye, the only thing wrong with these children was they wanted their parents, they just wanted a hug from mom. Of course too, their parents didn't seem to want kids was the sadder part. We had a great daycare, but no matter how good the daycare, none can replace hugs from mom or the values you might instill in them. And the more time together with the parents to learn these things the better. The other reason I say I'm on the fringe though is that of my group of friends looking to have kids soon, the majority are planning to stay home with their children, and the reason being sort of a backlash to this current generation of kids between us and what will be our kids.
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HYPERASHEL
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Location: The South's Sauna, Atlanta
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:34 Post subject:
| Noley wrote: | | I had students one year tell me that they were going to "report" another teacher they had for assigning too much homework. When asked "why?"...they didn't have any great explaination. I probed further and said, "Why do you feel that you have to go to the office to complain about Ms. A?". They answered..."WE HAVE OUR RIGHTS YOU KNOW..." |
I would have assigned the homework of reading and write and essay in the Bill of Rights. 
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omega lambda
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:43 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | omega lambda wrote: | | How many of us grew up with a working father and stay-at-home mother? How many of us grew up with two working parents? Sometimes, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but I think jrjo has a point that parents are the biggest influence to children, yet if both of them work, the parents' sphere of influence shrinks, and someone else's increases. Add to that, that two working parents (or a single working parent) have a lot of work to do when they are home so that their attention is divided, maybe kidlets ARE learning too much from television, books, peers and whoever. |
[HIJACK]
And we can thank our imperial federal government for a higher tax load than our parents and grandparents paid in their day forcing more parents to work outside of the home. If taxes were lower, families would have more income to spend on themselves and more parents wouldn't be forced to work to generate income.
[/HIJACK] |
Is that necessarily true? I work in a predominately female office. I am only one of two, 'one' income families here out of 25. Of all the mothers working (or two-income fathers for that matter), they all drive pretty nice cars (nice payments alongside), help keep up some big mortgage payments, pay mondo daycare costs and judging by the UPS drops everyday, fashion isn't coming outta spare change. I don't think it's taxes that make both mom and dad work, it seems like consumerism is more oft the case to me. |
I think this is one of those issues where there are truly people in need, and there are people who have manufactured their need. I very happily pay taxes so that some of my money can be spent on quality preschool/daycare programs for kidlets who aren't fortunate to have two parents, one of whom can stay home with them. And I gladly pay taxes to help those less fortunate than me. But like jrjo, I live in an area where people (my kidlets' friends' parents) complain often and loudly about the need for two incomes, and a sports scholarship to pay for the kidlets' college, and that they pay too much in taxes, etc. etc. etc., yet these people live in 4000 sq. ft. houses, each member of the family has a car and a cell phone, and they all wear designer clothes. In my opinion, their priorities have gotten them in the situation they're in, and consumerism. There has to be a balance.
Clearly, not every family can have a stay-at-home parent. And I don't think that is the entire answer. But I think jrjo is right about the parents' influence. Parents who put a priority on raising children with respect, good manners and a good work ethic will probably raise children who show respect, have good manners and a good work ethic, regardless of whether there is a stay-at-home parent or not.
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robp
Pyromaniac
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Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:44 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | omega lambda wrote: | | How many of us grew up with a working father and stay-at-home mother? How many of us grew up with two working parents? Sometimes, I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I'll probably take a lot of heat for this, but I think jrjo has a point that parents are the biggest influence to children, yet if both of them work, the parents' sphere of influence shrinks, and someone else's increases. Add to that, that two working parents (or a single working parent) have a lot of work to do when they are home so that their attention is divided, maybe kidlets ARE learning too much from television, books, peers and whoever. |
[HIJACK]
And we can thank our imperial federal government for a higher tax load than our parents and grandparents paid in their day forcing more parents to work outside of the home. If taxes were lower, families would have more income to spend on themselves and more parents wouldn't be forced to work to generate income.
[/HIJACK] |
Is that necessarily true? I work in a predominately female office. I am only one of two, 'one' income families here out of 25. Of all the mothers working (or two-income fathers for that matter), they all drive pretty nice cars (nice payments alongside), help keep up some big mortgage payments, pay mondo daycare costs and judging by the UPS drops everyday, fashion isn't coming outta spare change. I don't think it's taxes that make both mom and dad work, it seems like consumerism is more oft the case to me. |
I agree jrjo - it's consumerism and having to have the biggest and best of everything. My x and I tried the sahm thing for a while. We survived just fine on my income but there wasn't much left over for entertainment. It frustrated the heck out of her not having money to continue the same lifestyle, as it did me to a point. The extra cash just wasn't there for her to do her gardens the way she liked them, continue building her antique collection, etc.
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Cappy
Excelent
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Joined: 16 May 2002
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:49 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: | | Parents who put a priority on raising children with respect, good manners and a good work ethic will probably raise children who show respect, have good manners and a good work ethic, regardless of whether there is a stay-at-home parent or not. |
Well said OL. Anyone who has met my children can vouch for them.
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Noley
AZhat
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 12:50 Post subject:
| Cappy wrote: | | omega lambda wrote: | | Parents who put a priority on raising children with respect, good manners and a good work ethic will probably raise children who show respect, have good manners and a good work ethic, regardless of whether there is a stay-at-home parent or not. |
Well said OL. Anyone who has met my children can vouch for them. |
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Joined: 14 May 2002
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:09 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: | | Parents who put a priority on raising children with respect, good manners and a good work ethic will probably raise children who show respect, have good manners and a good work ethic, regardless of whether there is a stay-at-home parent or not. |
Oh definitely there are kids in daycares everywhere whose parents have a big impact on their lives. And I'm sure there are examples of kids whose parents stay home all day and still don't instill anything in them except what they absorb from the TV. Just being home doesn't make a difference.
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Orange Bubble
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:27 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: |
Is that necessarily true? I work in a predominately female office. I am only one of two, 'one' income families here out of 25. Of all the mothers working (or two-income fathers for that matter), they all drive pretty nice cars (nice payments alongside), help keep up some big mortgage payments, pay mondo daycare costs and judging by the UPS drops everyday, fashion isn't coming outta spare change. I don't think it's taxes that make both mom and dad work, it seems like consumerism is more oft the case to me. |
I don't think you can lump everyone into the same category. BUT...some of the women I know who work outside of the home do indeed depend on their paycheck to afford luxuries. We're talking $160.00 jeans (they do exist and women do wear them), Coach handbags (at about $200.00 a pop), huge SUVs, 3,000 sq. ft. houses, a closet full of shoes from Nordstrom, whatever. Without their paycheck they would have to sacrifice their weekly shopping sprees and buy their kids' clothes from Target. Same goes for men, too, though. They would have to sacrifice golf trips, designer suits, SUV...in a word: stuff.
People just have to have the best of the best, and more than their neighbor. One of my friends confessed that she wants to keep up with the Joneses and she is always buying new clothes, even though she works in a fairly relaxed environment. I don't get it. Well, I sort of do. We live in a very imagine conscious time and are reminded of what we DON'T have. Ever watch MTV Cribs (though, jrjo, I can predict your answer is "no)? They show off the Cristal in the rfridge (that's almost $300 a bottle), the Hummer in the garage, the Egyptian cotton sheets, fur coats, plasma TV...it's nuts!
Anyway, to answer your question, I don't think it is fair to generalize that women ONLY work for stuff. Some women work because they LOVE what they do and worked their whole lives in college to get to where they are. My parents divorced when I was 7 and it was hell for my sister and I when she had to get a job and leave the home. For her it was not easy, either, and she tells me how lucky I am that I can stay home with Olivia and to do it as long as I can because when you work outside of the home you miss so much.
I am babbling, I know, but it's not black and white.
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genie
Master of Prissface
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Joined: 14 May 2002
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Location: Finding serenity one day at a time
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:29 Post subject:
| Cappy wrote: | | omega lambda wrote: | | Parents who put a priority on raising children with respect, good manners and a good work ethic will probably raise children who show respect, have good manners and a good work ethic, regardless of whether there is a stay-at-home parent or not. |
Well said OL. Anyone who has met my children can vouch for them. |
I firmly agree. I've met several Riff Raffers' kids, including the Cappy-lets, and I have to say, unbiasedly, that they are ALL very well behaved, intelligent young people. Some of the mothers work, others do not, so the specific circumstances are slightly different, but I can tell just from being around you guys that you are all concerned parents who are very involved in their kids' lives and aren't buying into all this poltically correct horsecrap that Marcie has been referring to about "rights" and all the touchy feely nonsense that is being spewed out there. Marcie, you have a very valid point, and I won't turn this into a political battle but I do think that the whole spectrum of "political correctness" goes WAY too far today in creating entitled kids, spoiled brats who get away with everything, and parents who are more concerned about what everyone thinks than instilling strong core values into the next generation. I commend all of you for not buying into that crap and raising your kids right.
Even though I don't have kids myself, I did work with kids in a mental health setting for several years and therefore I've seen the gamut of parenting styles and the resulting functionality or dysfunctionality that comes from it. Whoever said parents should still be the child's main influence, whether there is a SAH parent involved or not is dead on correct. Yes, the polticians and the media are to blame for some of the influences our kids are bombarded with, but a good parent or set of parents can combat a lot of that by actually giving a crap and paying attention to their kids.
I just have to add that this is a great discussion! We have some really insightful people here. 
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Orange Bubble
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:34 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: |
Of course too, their parents didn't seem to want kids was the sadder part. |
Well that is a shame.  I am friends with many mothers who work outside of the home and they cannot WAIT to leave work so they can spend time with their children. On Fridays, that last hour before they are done for the week, the only thing on their minds is their children. It does not get easier for them when they drop their children off at daycare, particularly when they start to LIKE daycare and no longer cling to their legs when they leave. That would break my heart for certain.
But, again, it is not fair that these generalizations are made that women who work don't WANT to be mothers, or don't really care about their children.
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jrjo
Gone Fishin
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: Lake Wobegon, MN
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:44 Post subject:
| Orange Bubble wrote: | | ...but it's not black and white. |
Oh, I know it is. That's why I'm careful to say "moms and dads" and use "mostly" or "typically" in my posts. There's always exceptions, but by and large, I'd say the vast majority of households don't "need" two incomes. Here in Minnesota, 72% of mothers work. Of course, single mothers need to. And underemployed families need to with making ends meet. But when does "need" turn into "want". Certainly way before things like the Hummer in the garage and the $300 bottle of bubbly in the fridge.
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:46 Post subject:
| Orange Bubble wrote: | | cherylpf wrote: |
Of course too, their parents didn't seem to want kids was the sadder part. |
Well that is a shame. I am friends with many mothers who work outside of the home and they cannot WAIT to leave work so they can spend time with their children. On Fridays, that last hour before they are done for the week, the only thing on their minds is their children. It does not get easier for them when they drop their children off at daycare, particularly when they start to LIKE daycare and no longer cling to their legs when they leave. That would break my heart for certain.
But, again, it is not fair that these generalizations are made that women who work don't WANT to be mothers, or don't really care about their children. |
It was horrible. I can think of 2 cases. The worst being Martin. Precious boy, 3 years old when I met him, about to have his 6th birthday when I moved away. Very active, VERY smart, not rote smart but scarily intuitive. He was 'very active' (borderline to hyper active) and I think that was more than very career oriented mom could take (who seemingly had two kids for show, or on accident). But, when his foods were monitored and sleep patterns were very consistent (sad when I the caretaker know as well as the family if these are true because I'm the one doing half) he did really really well. When he wasn't though (which unfortunately was the majority of hte time) he was a handful and had plenty of incident reports which angered career oriented mom. So she would pick up poor Martin at the end of a VERY long day for him and as he is so excited to see her she would proceed to yell at him in front of his friends after we had given her incident reports to initial. We would almost treat him differently after a while just to not get the incident reports. Just heartbreaking.
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pokychick
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:47 Post subject:
I can't wait to dump little Poky in daycare in the morning. When I pick her up in my big honking SUV in the afternoon, I just take her home and plop her in front of the plasma tv where she eats junk food, usually a Happy Meal, until bedtime.
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 06/10/04 - 14:50 Post subject:
| pokychick wrote: | | I can't wait to dump little Poky in daycare in the morning. When I pick her up in my big honking SUV in the afternoon, I just take her home and plop her in front of the plasma tv where she eats junk food, usually a Happy Meal, until bedtime. |
Well I thought I protected little poky by using an alias of "Martin" 
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