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kobyj
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 Posted: 08/23/04 - 12:28 Post subject:
No, I can't tell you who got 4th. I can't even tell you who got 1st. I didn't watch the race. I have watched maybe 30 minutes of the olympics this year.
I guess it's the fact that I'm not a pro, but if I was there, I'd finish just to say I ran a marathon in the olympics. I wouldn't care if I got last. I ran it.
For me, it's like saying that you ran the WS100. Or you ran Badwater. Or meeting an astronaut. True, they are not the first to do it, but it just instills a form of respect. Would I treat Neil Armstrong any different then David Wolf? No. Would I treat the 1st place runner, or Deena, or the 78th place runners any different from each other. No.
I still do have respect for her though. Like the respect I have for my friends that attempted Badwater a few years ago. It is an accomplishment to just get into the race. The respect is not as great, but it is still there.
Was this her first time in the Olympics? Do you think she'll have a chance the next time?
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 12:30 Post subject:
| kobyj wrote: |
Was this her first time in the Olympics? Do you think she'll have a chance the next time? |
I don't think it was her first Olympics, but it was her first Olympic Marathon. I guess she kept coming in 4th because she didn't have a kick so she tried a longer distance where kick isn't quite as important.
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marathonrnr262
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 12:34 Post subject:
I'm not elite, but I can say that I have pulled up and stopped on a few occasions when I knew i had no chance of a podium or even a high ranking. No way I am gonna jeopordize my whole season on one race.
I walked, jogged most of the run in Clermont this year. I knew i had no chance and I just slowed it down and took it easy. I finished, yes, but I might have stopped if I had another way back to the start line. 
I really don't think she had anything left in the tank and instead of walking, she just sat down. Sometimes it takes more of a person to accept defeat then it does to win graciously.
Sheldon
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gretriever
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 12:52 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | kobyj wrote: |
Was this her first time in the Olympics? Do you think she'll have a chance the next time? |
I don't think it was her first Olympics, but it was her first Olympic Marathon. I guess she kept coming in 4th because she didn't have a kick so she tried a longer distance where kick isn't quite as important. |
Right. In Sydney, she ran the 10,000 meters. She finished 4th, running 30:26.97. 9.48 seconds behind the gold-medal winner, and 4.09 behind the bronze.
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CoachCraig
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 14:40 Post subject:
First, let me make it clear that no one here really knows what happened, including me. Further, it is safe to say that no one here can possibly relate to what Paula experienced in this race. While I will offer up my semi-educated opinion, it is important to realize we are all arguing this from a position of ignorance. It seems some posters need to go back and read their own posts with the realization that the writer had little or no idea what they were talking about.
So, taking my opinions with an equal grain of salt, here are my thoughts.
My best guess was that Paula was not injured in any way, although she implied herself that she was unsure if there was something wrong with her that caused her to falter. It only takes being a few percent off from full strength to make the difference between winning and blowing up in an Olympic marathon. Elite runners are often diagnosed with minor vitamin deficiencies or mild illnesses that only become noticed because they are pushing themselves to the absolute limit.
It is hard to separate Paula's physical and mental breakdowns. It seems quite clear that she was physically in trouble, and certainly unable to hang on well enough to get a medal. What is unknown to anyone is whether she was physically able to stagger to the finish. Her emotional breakdown could have easily been because her physical body was unable to live up to her dreams. The flip side is once you are mentally broken, the body will soon follow. No one, including probably Paula herself can fully answer that question.
One thing very few people truly understand is how catastrophic hitting the wall can be. I have hit the wall very badly a couple times, and trust me - it wasn't possible for me to jog, walk, or even crawl to the next mile marker. It is easy for people to watch the race on TV (especially those who have never run an all-out marathon) and say she should have just "forced her way through it" to the finish. This is an ignorant viewpoint from people who have never been there.
We don't really know physically how bad off she was. Certainly the combination of physical and emotional was completely shot. Unlike Deena, Paula ran an all-or-nothing race and the tank ran dry. In that state you really can't make any rational decisions. Perhaps she could have sat at the side of the road for 10 minutes, regrouped, and walked to the finish. Perhaps not. I have finished a race like that, and it was 6 months before I physically began to feel normal again and a year before I mentally was able to get back into running again.
One think no one has mentioned yet, is Paula still might race the 10K later in the week. I don't really expect she was thinking about that during the marathon, but that would make it much smarter to drop out when things went bad instead of destroying herself to finish 20th, 50th, or get pulled off the course on a stretcher.
People have been critical of Paula's race strategy, but she ran exactly how she should have. Leading and pushing the pace matched her strengths. Had she run everyone into the ground and won, everyone would be talking about how gutsy she was and what a great race she ran. Likewise, had Deena finished 4th, everyone would be talking now about how stupid it was to sit so far back and not even give herself a chance to be in contention. Remember that Joan Benoit took the lead just 3 miles into the 1984 Olympics and opened up a huge lead in the first 10 miles. It was a brilliant move only because it worked. Paula did what she needed to in order to give herself the best chance of winning. Noguchi ran at the front the entire race as well (more than Radcliffe obviously) and no one is talking about how she was dumb for doing too much work at the front. Some days you just have it, and some days you don't.
I am very interested to see if Paula comes back in the 10K. It is a very strong field, so even without running the marathon she wouldn't have been a lock for a medal. On one hand it would give her a chance to redeem herself, but on the other hand the only thing worse than one bad race is two. I doubt her confidence is extremely high right now.
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kattzoo
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 14:49 Post subject:
I don't blame her at all for the DNF. She's a professional, she has to race another day, and in her case, another day at the Olympics. She knew this race was done, over with, gone, but then next one wasn't. What was the point of walking in, risking injury (she's already broke down), dehydration, and energy. I don't see anyone upset about the other DNF's.
Most of us will trod through our marathons, knowing we've invested all the time and training and this is it for us. Our payoff is that finishers medal. For these elite athletes, finishing a race may mean losing the next one, and not getting their check, losing sponsorship money, rankings etc...
IMHO, she did the right thing and it was sad to see it happen.
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megawill
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 14:53 Post subject:
| CoachCraig wrote: | First, let me make it clear that no one here really knows what happened, including me. Further, it is safe to say that no one here can possibly relate to what Paula experienced in this race. While I will offer up my semi-educated opinion, it is important to realize we are all arguing this from a position of ignorance. It seems some posters need to go back and read their own posts with the realization that the writer had little or no idea what they were talking about.
So, taking my opinions with an equal grain of salt, here are my thoughts.
My best guess was that Paula was not injured in any way, although she implied herself that she was unsure if there was something wrong with her that caused her to falter. It only takes being a few percent off from full strength to make the difference between winning and blowing up in an Olympic marathon. Elite runners are often diagnosed with minor vitamin deficiencies or mild illnesses that only become noticed because they are pushing themselves to the absolute limit.
It is hard to separate Paula's physical and mental breakdowns. It seems quite clear that she was physically in trouble, and certainly unable to hang on well enough to get a medal. What is unknown to anyone is whether she was physically able to stagger to the finish. Her emotional breakdown could have easily been because her physical body was unable to live up to her dreams. The flip side is once you are mentally broken, the body will soon follow. No one, including probably Paula herself can fully answer that question.
One thing very few people truly understand is how catastrophic hitting the wall can be. I have hit the wall very badly a couple times, and trust me - it wasn't possible for me to jog, walk, or even crawl to the next mile marker. It is easy for people to watch the race on TV (especially those who have never run an all-out marathon) and say she should have just "forced her way through it" to the finish. This is an ignorant viewpoint from people who have never been there.
We don't really know physically how bad off she was. Certainly the combination of physical and emotional was completely shot. Unlike Deena, Paula ran an all-or-nothing race and the tank ran dry. In that state you really can't make any rational decisions. Perhaps she could have sat at the side of the road for 10 minutes, regrouped, and walked to the finish. Perhaps not. I have finished a race like that, and it was 6 months before I physically began to feel normal again and a year before I mentally was able to get back into running again.
One think no one has mentioned yet, is Paula still might race the 10K later in the week. I don't really expect she was thinking about that during the marathon, but that would make it much smarter to drop out when things went bad instead of destroying herself to finish 20th, 50th, or get pulled off the course on a stretcher.
People have been critical of Paula's race strategy, but she ran exactly how she should have. Leading and pushing the pace matched her strengths. Had she run everyone into the ground and won, everyone would be talking about how gutsy she was and what a great race she ran. Likewise, had Deena finished 4th, everyone would be talking now about how stupid it was to sit so far back and not even give herself a chance to be in contention. Remember that Joan Benoit took the lead just 3 miles into the 1984 Olympics and opened up a huge lead in the first 10 miles. It was a brilliant move only because it worked. Paula did what she needed to in order to give herself the best chance of winning. Noguchi ran at the front the entire race as well (more than Radcliffe obviously) and no one is talking about how she was dumb for doing too much work at the front. Some days you just have it, and some days you don't.
I am very interested to see if Paula comes back in the 10K. It is a very strong field, so even without running the marathon she wouldn't have been a lock for a medal. On one hand it would give her a chance to redeem herself, but on the other hand the only thing worse than one bad race is two. I doubt her confidence is extremely high right now. |
thanks, craig...as always an excellent post...
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megawill
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RunsLikeAGirl
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 15:11 Post subject:
| megawill wrote: | | CoachCraig wrote: | First, let me make it clear that no one here really knows what happened, including me. Further, it is safe to say that no one here can possibly relate to what Paula experienced in this race. While I will offer up my semi-educated opinion, it is important to realize we are all arguing this from a position of ignorance. It seems some posters need to go back and read their own posts with the realization that the writer had little or no idea what they were talking about.
So, taking my opinions with an equal grain of salt, here are my thoughts.
My best guess was that Paula was not injured in any way, although she implied herself that she was unsure if there was something wrong with her that caused her to falter. It only takes being a few percent off from full strength to make the difference between winning and blowing up in an Olympic marathon. Elite runners are often diagnosed with minor vitamin deficiencies or mild illnesses that only become noticed because they are pushing themselves to the absolute limit.
It is hard to separate Paula's physical and mental breakdowns. It seems quite clear that she was physically in trouble, and certainly unable to hang on well enough to get a medal. What is unknown to anyone is whether she was physically able to stagger to the finish. Her emotional breakdown could have easily been because her physical body was unable to live up to her dreams. The flip side is once you are mentally broken, the body will soon follow. No one, including probably Paula herself can fully answer that question.
One thing very few people truly understand is how catastrophic hitting the wall can be. I have hit the wall very badly a couple times, and trust me - it wasn't possible for me to jog, walk, or even crawl to the next mile marker. It is easy for people to watch the race on TV (especially those who have never run an all-out marathon) and say she should have just "forced her way through it" to the finish. This is an ignorant viewpoint from people who have never been there.
We don't really know physically how bad off she was. Certainly the combination of physical and emotional was completely shot. Unlike Deena, Paula ran an all-or-nothing race and the tank ran dry. In that state you really can't make any rational decisions. Perhaps she could have sat at the side of the road for 10 minutes, regrouped, and walked to the finish. Perhaps not. I have finished a race like that, and it was 6 months before I physically began to feel normal again and a year before I mentally was able to get back into running again.
One think no one has mentioned yet, is Paula still might race the 10K later in the week. I don't really expect she was thinking about that during the marathon, but that would make it much smarter to drop out when things went bad instead of destroying herself to finish 20th, 50th, or get pulled off the course on a stretcher.
People have been critical of Paula's race strategy, but she ran exactly how she should have. Leading and pushing the pace matched her strengths. Had she run everyone into the ground and won, everyone would be talking about how gutsy she was and what a great race she ran. Likewise, had Deena finished 4th, everyone would be talking now about how stupid it was to sit so far back and not even give herself a chance to be in contention. Remember that Joan Benoit took the lead just 3 miles into the 1984 Olympics and opened up a huge lead in the first 10 miles. It was a brilliant move only because it worked. Paula did what she needed to in order to give herself the best chance of winning. Noguchi ran at the front the entire race as well (more than Radcliffe obviously) and no one is talking about how she was dumb for doing too much work at the front. Some days you just have it, and some days you don't.
I am very interested to see if Paula comes back in the 10K. It is a very strong field, so even without running the marathon she wouldn't have been a lock for a medal. On one hand it would give her a chance to redeem herself, but on the other hand the only thing worse than one bad race is two. I doubt her confidence is extremely high right now. |
thanks, craig...as always an excellent post...
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megawill |
Nice post, coach. Except for the part where certain posters were called ignorant. Opinions can be disagreed with. Vehemently, I might add. But there is no reason to label the poster as ignorant, especially when no animosity was expressed.
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robp
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 15:21 Post subject:
I think she did what she felt she had to do and owes no one an apology or an explanation other than her coach and sponsors. Like coach and others have said, she may have poured so much of herself into this race both physically and emotionally it could have been very detrimental to her future running to have forced herself across the finish line.
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 15:32 Post subject:
Excellent post, Coach
Go, what Coach said was "we are arguing from a position of ignorance". He didn't call us ignorant. The difference is that what he said means we are posting with only our opinions and not from facts based on hard evidence about Paula Radcliffe's condition. Since Radcliffe herself was vague, we can't really argue based off of her own testimony. Most of us also can't compare what we go through physically with that of a true elite athlete, so we can't truly know what sort of experiene she may have been having.
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RunsLikeAGirl
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 15:41 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | Excellent post, Coach
Go, what Coach said was "we are arguing from a position of ignorance". He didn't call us ignorant. The difference is that what he said means we are posting with only our opinions and not from facts based on hard evidence about Paula Radcliffe's condition. Since Radcliffe herself was vague, we can't really argue based off of her own testimony. Most of us also can't compare what we go through physically with that of a true elite athlete, so we can't truly know what sort of experiene she may have been having. |
True enough. I merely mean to point out that I, for one, do not claim to know her whole story. Just expressing an opinion based on the info I have.
And I'm RLAG, not Go.
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 15:56 Post subject:
| RunsLikeAGirl wrote: | | Pug wrote: | Excellent post, Coach
Go, what Coach said was "we are arguing from a position of ignorance". He didn't call us ignorant. The difference is that what he said means we are posting with only our opinions and not from facts based on hard evidence about Paula Radcliffe's condition. Since Radcliffe herself was vague, we can't really argue based off of her own testimony. Most of us also can't compare what we go through physically with that of a true elite athlete, so we can't truly know what sort of experiene she may have been having. |
True enough. I merely mean to point out that I, for one, do not claim to know her whole story. Just expressing an opinion based on the info I have.
And I'm RLAG, not Go. |
I'm sorry, RLAG. I think i'm so used to Go arguing little points that i made an unfortunate assumption. 
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BamBam
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 15:58 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | RunsLikeAGirl wrote: | | Pug wrote: | Excellent post, Coach
Go, what Coach said was "we are arguing from a position of ignorance". He didn't call us ignorant. The difference is that what he said means we are posting with only our opinions and not from facts based on hard evidence about Paula Radcliffe's condition. Since Radcliffe herself was vague, we can't really argue based off of her own testimony. Most of us also can't compare what we go through physically with that of a true elite athlete, so we can't truly know what sort of experiene she may have been having. |
True enough. I merely mean to point out that I, for one, do not claim to know her whole story. Just expressing an opinion based on the info I have.
And I'm RLAG, not Go. |
I'm sorry, RLAG. I think i'm so used to Go arguing little points that i made an unfortunate assumption. |
Did you ever get the feeling that both feet might not fit in your mouth?
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/23/04 - 16:00 Post subject:
| BamBam wrote: | | Pug wrote: | | RunsLikeAGirl wrote: | | Pug wrote: | Excellent post, Coach
Go, what Coach said was "we are arguing from a position of ignorance". He didn't call us ignorant. The difference is that what he said means we are posting with only our opinions and not from facts based on hard evidence about Paula Radcliffe's condition. Since Radcliffe herself was vague, we can't really argue based off of her own testimony. Most of us also can't compare what we go through physically with that of a true elite athlete, so we can't truly know what sort of experiene she may have been having. |
True enough. I merely mean to point out that I, for one, do not claim to know her whole story. Just expressing an opinion based on the info I have.
And I'm RLAG, not Go. |
I'm sorry, RLAG. I think i'm so used to Go arguing little points that i made an unfortunate assumption. |
Did you ever get the feeling that both feet might not fit in your mouth? |
Sometimes. I'm on good terms with Go, though, so i'm not too concerned. The question is: Am i still on good terms with RLAG?
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RunsLikeAGirl
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Posted: 08/24/04 - 07:35 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | BamBam wrote: | | Pug wrote: | | RunsLikeAGirl wrote: | | Pug wrote: | Excellent post, Coach
Go, what Coach said was "we are arguing from a position of ignorance". He didn't call us ignorant. The difference is that what he said means we are posting with only our opinions and not from facts based on hard evidence about Paula Radcliffe's condition. Since Radcliffe herself was vague, we can't really argue based off of her own testimony. Most of us also can't compare what we go through physically with that of a true elite athlete, so we can't truly know what sort of experiene she may have been having. |
True enough. I merely mean to point out that I, for one, do not claim to know her whole story. Just expressing an opinion based on the info I have.
And I'm RLAG, not Go. |
I'm sorry, RLAG. I think i'm so used to Go arguing little points that i made an unfortunate assumption. |
Did you ever get the feeling that both feet might not fit in your mouth? |
Sometimes. I'm on good terms with Go, though, so i'm not too concerned. The question is: Am i still on good terms with RLAG? |
Perhaps. I'm feeling generous. 
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