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Phar lap
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 Posted: 02/15/05 - 01:15 Post subject:
I should have explained my original post more throughly.
Firstly, I'm talking about training, normal day to day sessions when you decide to both run and lift, or, as I advocate lift then run.
I know you can all run more comfortably (faster) if you run first and do your weights after but I'm talking about training, not racing or if you are going out for a time trail. Depending on the level you are racing at you should not be lifting the week before an important race anyway.
EFFECTIVE,EFFICIENT training and this applies to elite athletes, SOCIAL and FITTNESS RUNNERS and worn out old has been's like myself.
Putting it as simply as I can. You start with your warm up then go on to your the weight training part of your program.
This requires blood sugar and glycogen from muscle and liver stores for energy. After the weights its time to turn to aerobic work. Because the blood sugar stores are now depleated, the body is now forced to utilize more of its fat stores as an energy source, resulting in more fat losses. The stitimulation of muscle from resistance work also is responsible for an increased resting metabolism.
RunnerX, for every runner of Alan Webb caliber you name, I'll give you three who lift first then run.......faster too 
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DCRunningDiva
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Posted: 02/15/05 - 10:01 Post subject:
| Phar lap wrote: | I should have explained my original post more throughly.
Firstly, I'm talking about training, normal day to day sessions when you decide to both run and lift, or, as I advocate lift then run.
I know you can all run more comfortably (faster) if you run first and do your weights after but I'm talking about training, not racing or if you are going out for a time trail. Depending on the level you are racing at you should not be lifting the week before an important race anyway.
EFFECTIVE,EFFICIENT training and this applies to elite athletes, SOCIAL and FITTNESS RUNNERS and worn out old has been's like myself.
Putting it as simply as I can. You start with your warm up then go on to your the weight training part of your program.
This requires blood sugar and glycogen from muscle and liver stores for energy. After the weights its time to turn to aerobic work. Because the blood sugar stores are now depleated, the body is now forced to utilize more of its fat stores as an energy source, resulting in more fat losses. The stitimulation of muscle from resistance work also is responsible for an increased resting metabolism.
RunnerX, for every runner of Alan Webb caliber you name, I'll give you three who lift first then run.......faster too |
Thanks for the info! 
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DCRunningDiva
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Posted: 02/15/05 - 10:04 Post subject: Re: Training Sessions in Order.
| Runner X wrote: |
He had a cameo appearance in a book called Sub 4. In that book, they described him lifting weights after practice (aka running).
Did you see him do this often? It is possible he has changed his routine. It is also possible that he was actually lifting in between runs. He's an animal with the weights, so he probably lifts whenever he feels like it.
But at one point, it was documented that he hit the weights after his run.
This is a stupid discussion.
What's the point of lifting before? Why is that the "proper" way? What would be the goal for doing that? Is this a thing about fitness running or performance running? The suspense is killing me. |
I just saw him do it once. He went to high school about 10 steps from where I used to live so I would see him running pretty regularly until we moved farther out in the burbs in October. He is totally an animal with the weights, though. Kinda like a freak animal! 
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spongebob
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Posted: 02/15/05 - 15:49 Post subject:
This is a better discussion now.
For every three you find that lift before they run, we can probably find others that don't lift at all (or very sporadically).
I've always heard that a big part of training was to run fast. That's why you wear your flats/spikes to the track. And a Nike study revealed that altitude trainers get the best results from living at higher altitude and doing their workouts at lower altitude. The premise was to do everything you could to make sure that the athlete's workouts were done in a manner that allowed them to run the fastest. That theory would suggest that lifting before a run would inhibit you from running as well as possible, which would mean you should do it after.
For every single person at this website, I don't think it really matters. Most of us probably don't do enough of either. But when you get into the elite athletes, I think you can see several examples to support any of the approaches we've discussed.
I like to lift after these days because I've noticed that I still build strength, but don't get nearly as bulky as I did a few summers ago when I would lift in the morning and run at night.
If I wanted to burn fat, I think your approach would be my plan of choice.
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DCRunningDiva
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Posted: 02/15/05 - 18:26 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | This is a better discussion now.
For every three you find that lift before they run, we can probably find others that don't lift at all (or very sporadically).
I've always heard that a big part of training was to run fast. That's why you wear your flats/spikes to the track. And a Nike study revealed that altitude trainers get the best results from living at higher altitude and doing their workouts at lower altitude. The premise was to do everything you could to make sure that the athlete's workouts were done in a manner that allowed them to run the fastest. That theory would suggest that lifting before a run would inhibit you from running as well as possible, which would mean you should do it after.
For every single person at this website, I don't think it really matters. Most of us probably don't do enough of either. But when you get into the elite athletes, I think you can see several examples to support any of the approaches we've discussed.
I like to lift after these days because I've noticed that I still build strength, but don't get nearly as bulky as I did a few summers ago when I would lift in the morning and run at night.
If I wanted to burn fat, I think your approach would be my plan of choice. |
 Burning fat (hopefully!). I'll stick with the "before run" approach!
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Ms. Jenn
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Posted: 02/15/05 - 23:20 Post subject:
I always lifted before I ran and I found I had a hard time moving, so I started lifted on my non-run days.
Same now. Much better runs, much better lifting.
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JACKED UP
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Posted: 02/16/05 - 07:38 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | This is a better discussion now.
For every three you find that lift before they run, we can probably find others that don't lift at all (or very sporadically).
I've always heard that a big part of training was to run fast. That's why you wear your flats/spikes to the track. And a Nike study revealed that altitude trainers get the best results from living at higher altitude and doing their workouts at lower altitude. The premise was to do everything you could to make sure that the athlete's workouts were done in a manner that allowed them to run the fastest. That theory would suggest that lifting before a run would inhibit you from running as well as possible, which would mean you should do it after.
For every single person at this website, I don't think it really matters. Most of us probably don't do enough of either. But when you get into the elite athletes, I think you can see several examples to support any of the approaches we've discussed.
I like to lift after these days because I've noticed that I still build strength, but don't get nearly as bulky as I did a few summers ago when I would lift in the morning and run at night.
If I wanted to burn fat, I think your approach would be my plan of choice. |
Well said, I agree.
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Phar lap
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Posted: 02/16/05 - 20:50 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | This is a better discussion now.
For every three you find that lift before they run, we can probably find others that don't lift at all (or very sporadically). |
I'm sure you can, but if we are talking middle distance runners they would be putting themselves at an extreme disavantage and I doubt they would make it to national standard, let alone international standard.
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Phar lap
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Posted: 02/17/05 - 01:30 Post subject:
[quote="Runner X"]
I've always heard that a big part of training was to run fast. That's why you wear your flats/spikes to the track. And a Nike study revealed that altitude trainers get the best results from living at higher altitude and doing their workouts at lower altitude. The premise was to do everything you could to make sure that the athlete's workouts were done in a manner that allowed them to run the fastest. That theory would suggest that lifting before a run would inhibit you from running as well as possible, which would mean you should do it after.
I'm talking about TRAINING not racing; training towards a series of races or one particular race or as most of us here, trying to improve our personal performance for the local weekend derby. Putting your body under stress, be it endurance, speed, altitude training or resistance.
Have you ever trained or ran at altitude?
The very reason for altitude training is to put the body under stress. (I think you will find the athlete's in the survey you mention did their workouts at altitude)I can tell you that many years ago I did train at altitude and we ran just as hard, the times never ever came out as fast and recovery took a lot longer but that was TRAINING. We received the benefit on returning to sea level (RACING)
Your theory would suggest to me that, as in using weights, there is a distinct difference between TRAINING and RACING. Training at altitude is to improve your all over performance, I can assure you that you never feel comfortable unless you back the pace right off (running faster and endurance) but the racing is done at sea level. The same applies with weights first, run second, you may run with a certain amout of mild discomfort until the body adapts. I never said that you push weights and then RACE
Thats the training effect!!!
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Phar lap
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Posted: 02/17/05 - 01:54 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: |
For every single person at this website, I don't think it really matters. Most of us probably don't do enough of either. But when you get into the elite athletes, I think you can see several examples to support any of the approaches we've discussed.
I like to lift after these days because I've noticed that I still build strength, but don't get nearly as bulky as I did a few summers ago when I would lift in the morning and run at night. |
For every single person at this website who wants to IMPROVE I think that it DOES matter. Whatever level or personal goal a person is striving for, if they are putting their time into their training by doing resistance training and running, then why not make it effictive and efficient.
PS.If you got bulky from weights, you were doing the wrong program.
X, I'll leave you to have the last word on this subject
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Posted: 02/17/05 - 07:07 Post subject:
| Phar lap wrote: |
For every single person at this website who wants to IMPROVE I think that it DOES matter. Whatever level or personal goal a person is striving for, if they are putting their time into their training by doing resistance training and running, then why not make it effictive and efficient.
PS.If you got bulky from weights, you were doing the wrong program.
X, I'll leave you to have the last word on this subject |
I'll agree to that too. I have set lots of runners up on weight programs who have remained lean, gained strength and speed without bulking up.
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spongebob
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Posted: 02/17/05 - 22:29 Post subject:
I'm not qualified to disprove your theory. I was just trying to point out that I've heard arguments for and against about when to lift and how much to lift, all from reliable sources.
In your original post, you said your approach was the "proper" one. I think it is open for discussion.
About your altitude training question, I live at 6,804 feet above sea level. Not only do I train, but I've witnessed elite athletes from Europe train here at various times. I'm well aware of the impact that altitude has on some of the world's best.
The article I read was in Wired magazine. It was about the Nike Project where they were trying to make world class American marathoners. Their study was the one that suggested it was best to live at higher altitude and in the "decompression" chambers, then go down to lower altitudes for workouts. Then back up to altitude when the running was done. I understnad your point about training in tougher conditions makes you better, but they were saying that it was best to have your body adapt to the high altitude most of the day and get higher quality workouts when you had extra O2 and less stress on your body. This was a pretty recent study, btw.
I'm going to poll some of the elites in town to see what they do. I won't tell them the premise of my question. I know 3 of them that currrently hold at least a national record and/or once held a world record. Their answers won't scientifically resolve this question, but it be interesting to see what their approach is.
Again, I wasn't trying to flat out disagree. But I think it isn't an obvious or final answer to say that lifting first is the proper way.
ps - I did have the wrong weight program. But even as I adjusted it, I felt like I was getting more desired results by lifting after 7 or 8 miles. I'm 74.5 inches tall and weigh between 170 and 175 pounds. Doing the same routine after running seemed to keep me from bulking up as much.
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