There appears to be explicit interference by Syria and Iran
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GaRebelRunner
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 Posted: 07/16/06 - 15:58 Post subject: There appears to be explicit interference by Syria and Iran
in the attacks by Hezbollah on Israel. Missiles, rockets made in both Syria and Iran have been found as well as reported 100 or so Iranian advisers being with the Hezbollah guerillas.
It appears that Hezbollah is not a rag tag group militia. It is fianced and supported by Syria and Iran in another sovereign nation - Lebanon which is unable to fend for itself at the moment.
Outside of Syria and Iran the rest of the Arab world has been very upset about the actions of Hezbollah.
So, do we go ahead and remove Iran's nuclear capabilities with the assistance of the U.S. Air Force and possible Navy cruise missiles? At this point I'm willing to agree that Iran has shown itself not capable of handling nuclear weapons responsibly or purely for defense and I'm strongly considering changing my former opinion that they should be permitted to build nuclear weapons just as we have allowed other countries such as Pakistan and India.
I would not favor Israel taking out Iran's nuclear facilities as I think that would inflame the Arab World. If anyone is going to remove Iran's nuclear capabilities it would almost have to be the U.S. in a surprise raid.
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MechEngDropout
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Posted: 07/16/06 - 17:49 Post subject:
If there is widespread support, especially in the UN, I would support selective air strikes as long as it remained only air strikes.
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andydp
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Posted: 07/16/06 - 18:11 Post subject:
Israel will not wait for anyone's approval. Those that attack Israel know they will get one heck of a response.
In my book, Israel will attack on her own and take care of Iran's capabilities. Just like they did with Iraq's.
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robp
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Posted: 07/17/06 - 08:15 Post subject:
I agree with Andy. Israel will take care of business - they don't pussyfoot around like we've done in the past for the sake of political correctness.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 07/17/06 - 10:29 Post subject:
Israel doesn't screw around, it's true. But it's a difficult position, to be in a sea of enemies. You can harm this one or that one but not all of them. I wonder sometimes what makes the Arab nations not get it together and bombard the crap out of Israel. Don't get me wrong, I hope it never happens.
But I wonder why it doesn't.
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wanttorun100
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Posted: 07/17/06 - 10:50 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | Israel doesn't screw around, it's true. But it's a difficult position, to be in a sea of enemies. You can harm this one or that one but not all of them. I wonder sometimes what makes the Arab nations not get it together and bombard the crap out of Israel. Don't get me wrong, I hope it never happens.
But I wonder why it doesn't. |
#1 getting them (Arab Countries) together is a bit like herding cats
#2 a lot of the big wigs in the Arab countries need Isreal as something for their people to hate
#3 Israel just might have a nuke or three
actually #1 they're afraid of what the US would do if they openly attacked our only 'friend' in the region
Does Israel have the ‘juice’ to take out nuke sights in Iran? I doubt they would want to over fly Saudi and I don’t think Israel has the tanker support they’d need. Not sure
They could always try a 9/11 – hijack commercial aircraft flying into Iran and crash them into the sites. Not their style and not sure if it would work anyway.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 07/17/06 - 11:59 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | | In my book, Israel will attack on her own and take care of Iran's capabilities. Just like they did with Iraq's. |
It's a different world today than when Israel took out Iraq's facilities. Such an action on Israel's part would be seen as an Act of War against all Arab states. While they have the capability of taking Iran's nuclear capabilities, it could spur a tremendous backlash in Arab countries to furnish materiel, financial and human support to groups such as Hezbollah. It just wouldn't be expediate for them to do it. And I think they would greatly hesitate before moving in such a direction.
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andydp
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Posted: 07/17/06 - 16:04 Post subject:
Although its 20 years later (or so) I am certain Israel will not hesitate to attack any country it feels is a threat to its existence. As far as I can tell, there has been no change in Israel's stance on its defense and responses. If you notice: this is how this plays out: Israel defends itself like it says, the Arab world "condemms" the action. Six months later, everyone forgets and life goes on.
You can bet your booty as we speak, there's negotiations going on involving all the parties to this party. (Iran, Syria, Hezbollah and Fatah and Israel) Let's face it, for all intents and purposes Hezbollah and Fatah started it so in my book they're getting what they deserve.
Israel needs to be around because the Arab world needs someone local to blame for their situation. If they have no outward enemies, then the people will look inward. (Basic Goebbels 101)
In 1967 and again in 1973 the Arab Nations tried to wipe out Israel. Its still there and stronger than ever.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 07/18/06 - 07:29 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | Although its 20 years later (or so) I am certain Israel will not hesitate to attack any country it feels is a threat to its existence. As far as I can tell, there has been no change in Israel's stance on its defense and responses. If you notice: this is how this plays out: Israel defends itself like it says, the Arab world "condemms" the action. Six months later, everyone forgets and life goes on.
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I'm going to disagree entirely with you here. I am not an Israeli supporter except to the extent they have the right to exist. Prior to the organization of the various groups (terrorist as you call them) Israel had its way with the Arab countries. That situation no longer exists, which even Israel recognizes today.
I support Israel in this situation only to the extent that Hezbollah attacked Israel without provocation and Israel does have the right to prevent them from attacking them from Lebanon since they are not a part of the Lebanese Army. And with the exception of Syria and Iran the Arab states have stated their displeasure with Hezbollah for this action. Something that has been unheard of in the past.
For Israel to attack Iran by itself would reverse those sentiments and cause many, many Israel deaths. I'm sure that is not lost on the Israeli government.
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gretriever
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Posted: 07/18/06 - 07:56 Post subject:
| wanttorun100 wrote: | | Gogirlgo wrote: | Israel doesn't screw around, it's true. But it's a difficult position, to be in a sea of enemies. You can harm this one or that one but not all of them. I wonder sometimes what makes the Arab nations not get it together and bombard the crap out of Israel. Don't get me wrong, I hope it never happens.
But I wonder why it doesn't. |
#1 getting them (Arab Countries) together is a bit like herding cats
#2 a lot of the big wigs in the Arab countries need Isreal as something for their people to hate
#3 Israel just might have a nuke or three
actually #1 they're afraid of what the US would do if they openly attacked our only 'friend' in the region
Does Israel have the ‘juice’ to take out nuke sights in Iran? I doubt they would want to over fly Saudi and I don’t think Israel has the tanker support they’d need. Not sure
They could always try a 9/11 – hijack commercial aircraft flying into Iran and crash them into the sites. Not their style and not sure if it would work anyway. |
They wouldn't do a 9/11. They'd use nukes. They are paranoid in the sense that they are the true odd-man out country in the area, a non-Islamic country* in a sea of Islam (as Go said). I do agree with Andy in that they would do whatever they feel is needed to defend their country and that would include the use of nukes. I disagree that they couldn't do it because of the logistics - I think they do have the physical capabilities to do such an attack. I feel what may hold them back is that such a move would not meet U.S. approval, unless it is an all-out war - country(-ies)- against-Israel.
* And I do recognize that the Arab/Muslam minority in Israel could become the majority there in our lifetime - hence the support by the Israeli government of developing a Palestinian state?
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wanttorun100
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Posted: 07/18/06 - 12:16 Post subject:
On Israel being able to strike Iran
| Quote: |
Israel is in the best position militarily in its history to mount air strikes against Iran, after a decade of buying U.S.-produced long-range aircraft, penetrating bombs and aerial refueling tankers.
Tel Aviv has ratcheted up the volume in attacking the hard-line Islamic regime as it fights the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. In the past, Israeli politicians have talked openly of attacking Iranian nuclear sites to prevent the U.S.-designated terror state from building atomic warheads.
Israel has purchased 25 $84 million F-15I (I for Israel) Ra'am, a special version of the U.S. F-15E long-range interdiction bomber. It also is buying 102 of another long-range tactical jet, the $45 million F-16I Sufa. About 60 have been delivered.
The Jewish state also is buying 500 U.S. BLU-109 "bunker buster" bombs that could penetrate the concrete protection around some of Iran's underground facilities, such as the uranium enrichment site at Natanz. The final piece of the enterprise is a fleet of B-707 air-to-air refuelers that could nurse strike aircraft as they made the 900-mile-plus trip inside Iran, dropped their bombs and returned to Israel.
"They have the capability to strike Iran," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney, a former fighter pilot who has trained with Israelis. "It would be limited, though. They could do 30 to 40 'aim points' in the array. I'm not worried about them hitting the targets. They will suffer losses, but they are capable of doing it."
He said Israeli fighter pilots are "the best in the world. I've flown against them. They train better. They get more flying time."
Perhaps just as important as weapon systems is airspace.
The most direct route would be through Jordanian and Iraqi airspace. Two Israeli pilots showed that they could navigate both without being shot down in 1981, when they flew the 600 miles to the Osirak nuclear reactor near Baghdad, dropped their bombs and returned over Jordan to an air base in southern Israel.
Today, the United States, not Saddam Hussein, controls Iraq's vast airspace. Military analysts suggest the United States might approve the mission passively by letting the jets fly both ways unencumbered.
Gen. McInerney said the United States must grant airspace rights. "They really can't do this without us," he said. "I wouldn't have them do it. We can do it much more aggressively and more decisively. We shouldn't force the Israelis to do it when we should do it."
The retired pilot called Iran's air defenses "1960s vintage" and not as good as the Iraqi defenses that Israeli pilots avoided in 1981.
Vice President Dick Cheney last year revealed Bush administration suspicions that Israel may take pre-emptive action.
"One of the concerns people have is that Israel might do it without being asked, that if, in fact, the Israelis became convinced the Iranians had significant nuclear capability, given the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is the destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first, and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterwards," he said on the "Imus in the Morning" radio show.
In the Osirak strike, both F-16s made the round trip without aerial refueling, but targets in Iran are at least 300 miles farther away. Although the F-15Is and F-16Is have a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles, the numbers would indicate that the mission might require aerial refueling, thus complicating an already daunting operation.
However, the Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the F-15Is and F-16Is "extended flight range reportedly allows Israeli forces to attack targets well within Iran without having to refuel."
Israeli political leaders have pressed the Bush administration to halt Iran's nuclear weapons program. At the same time, some have publicly stated that Israel will take unilateral action to destroy Iranian facilities if Washington fails to stop it. |
rather impressive I'd say
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andydp
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Posted: 07/18/06 - 13:53 Post subject:
Just a quick point that came up in conversation yesterday.
Have you noticed how quiet Iran has been during all this ? The Iranian President has not hesitated say anything before. Maybe I've missed it but since this started, he's been (in the words of Elmer Fudd) Vewy Vewy Quiet...
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 07/18/06 - 19:52 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | Just a quick point that came up in conversation yesterday.
Have you noticed how quiet Iran has been during all this ? The Iranian President has not hesitated say anything before. Maybe I've missed it but since this started, he's been (in the words of Elmer Fudd) Vewy Vewy Quiet... |
But don't you think that might be because outside of Iran and Syria, all the other Arab nations have expressed displeasure with the actions of Hezbollah and Iran's support of them? If Iran enjoyed widespread Arab support they would be just as loudmouthed as they have in the past. Israel has nothing to do with their silence. It's very rare that Arab states do not unite when it comes to Israel. Hezbollah's offices in Iran have also been very muted in their comments about the situation.
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theduck
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Posted: 07/18/06 - 23:27 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | Just a quick point that came up in conversation yesterday.
Have you noticed how quiet Iran has been during all this ? The Iranian President has not hesitated say anything before. Maybe I've missed it but since this started, he's been (in the words of Elmer Fudd) Vewy Vewy Quiet... |
Well, I am pretty sure laying low is his best option right now. He certainly can't pipe up with anything, lest they ask exactly why he is funneling these weapons, etc., to Hezbellah and Hamas...
...but I certainly wouldn't wait for the UN to accomplish anything in this matter either. They have shown that outside of our own Congress, they are the biggest do nothing blow hard rag tag bunch of nincompoops ever to be assembled in one place....they are like the land of mis-fit toys.
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andydp
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Posted: 07/19/06 - 05:19 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | | andydp wrote: | | The Iranian President has not hesitated say anything before. Maybe I've missed it but since this started, he's been (in the words of Elmer Fudd) Vewy Vewy Quiet... |
But don't you think that might be because outside of Iran and Syria, all the other Arab nations have expressed displeasure with the actions of Hezbollah and Iran's support of them? If Iran enjoyed widespread Arab support they would be just as loudmouthed as they have in the past. Israel has nothing to do with their silence. It's very rare that Arab states do not unite when it comes to Israel. Hezbollah's offices in Iran have also been very muted in their comments about the situation. |
I think he and the Iraninan government have been quiet because they know if they say the "wrong" thing Israel will not hesitate to come over and "take care" of the problem. Personally this just shows that all that big mouth talk was nothing but hot air. The Iranian people know Israel will not hesitate to act preemptorily.
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