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HighHeat
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 Posted: 08/07/05 - 19:35 Post subject: Steroids (Palmiero) vs Gambling (Rose)
If Palmeiro committed perjury, should he be offered a similar deal that ultimately cost Pete Rose his shot at Cooperstown?
Basically, Pete Rose squawks about not being in Cooperstown, but it was Pete himself who signed the agreement to be on the "permanently ineligible" list with MLB in exchange for dropping any official court ruling (and charges) on whether or not he bet on baseball. All the arugments about players still allowed to be associated with baseball who had been using recreational drugs and beating their wives and running into the law, were countered with the argument that Rose "undermined the integrity of the game" which one could easily argue that Palmiero has done by taking steroids.
Now that there's incresed scrutiny from Congress as to whether Palmiero lied under oath, do you think he will, or he should, see anything similar to the deal that Rose reached with Bart Giamatti? (side note: he happens to be the father of actor Paul Giamatti)
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Cappy
Excelent
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Posted: 08/07/05 - 20:22 Post subject:
Palmerio, et al (anyone who used steroids, I should say proved that they used) should not be eligible for the hall, and any records associated with said users should be null and void.
IMHO Pete Rose belongs in the hall. Nothing he did on the field affected the outcome of the game like these creep steroid users
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j1miller
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Posted: 08/07/05 - 20:53 Post subject:
HI,
As the ultimate Pete Rose fan, Ithink he should most definately be in the hall of fame as a player. He signed that deal under duress, and as such, it should be null and void. Can I prove that? Nope, but, consider this. BG was totally out to put him in jail. What Pete did hut no one and did not hurt the game. He was greedy, He was stupid and made some severe choices, but is still the best player ever to set foot on the field and deserves his place in the hall for his abilities.
The people that do drugs and use steriods to gain an advantage over other people are flat out cheaters and should be banned from the game, the hall and the stands. They don't deserve to wear the uniform, or be called ball players.
Did I mention I live in Cincinnati?
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 07:28 Post subject:
Pete Rose should be in the hall as a player. As a manager he was garbage.
Palmiero? I don't know. It's hard to say just how tainted today's game is and how we can accurately judge what is going on and who is doing what. With that in mind, do we call today's era just another "era" in baseball like the deadball era or the time where the pitcher's mound was raised?
What gets me about this whole situation is that while up until now these substances haven't carried any sort of penalty for them in baseball, they are illegal in America. Baseball shouldn't have to ban the use because they aren't legal. Duh!
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j1miller
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 08:11 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: |
What gets me about this whole situation is that while up until now these substances haven't carried any sort of penalty for them in baseball, they are illegal in America. Baseball shouldn't have to ban the use because they aren't legal. Duh! |
Big Fat 
Murder and robbery aren't banned by baseball either are they (I haven't checked), but I would hope a player would be banned for them.
Didn't Rose win the World Series as a Manager? Just askin..... I really don't know what makes a manager good or bad, nor do I really care. Like I said, I'm a fan of his. Not much is going to change that. I agree with your statement about being in as a player and not a manager, though.... not the garbage part. 
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 08:16 Post subject:
| j1miller wrote: | | I agree with your statement about being in as a player and not a manager, though.... not the garbage part. |
I mean garbage because of his gambling on baseball as a manager. Not because of quality of managing.
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j1miller
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 08:21 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | j1miller wrote: | | I agree with your statement about being in as a player and not a manager, though.... not the garbage part. |
I mean garbage because of his gambling on baseball as a manager. Not because of quality of managing. |
Then I can agree with that.
sort of... that is as far as I'll ever go against him.
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runslow
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 09:43 Post subject:
| Cappy wrote: |
IMHO Pete Rose belongs in the hall. Nothing he did on the field affected the outcome of the game like these creep steroid users |
I agree ... on the field "Charlie Hustle" played the game with a passion that one seldom see in sports. I loved watching the guy play baseball. He played hard and he played to win. Off the field .......
I liked baseball so much better when there were only 8 teams in the AL and 8 teams in the NL. The Giants were still in New York and the Dodgers were in Brooklyn. They schedule was only 154 games and the World Series started the first week in October and was played during the day. Guys named Mantle, Berra, Williams and Mays patrolled the fields. Things were so much simpler then ... compared to today's game, the sport was innocent and not filled with crap like steroids. Sure, baseball had it's issues, but ........
Baseball, like history has it's eras. The sport is built on records and has an enormous statistical base. Wouldn't it be interesting to look 30 years into the future and see how the "steroid era" is portrayed.
I still vote for a "Hall of Shame" for the steriod clowns.
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HighHeat
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 10:19 Post subject:
For the record, the Dowd report had evidence that Pete Rose betted from 1984-1987.
What people forget, is that he was a player-manager from '84-'86
So he was betting while he was still playing.
In terms of criminal activity, betting may not be as severe as murder, but in terms of how it affects the game of baseball....betting on your own team definitely destroys the integrity of the game...and if you're after preserving the integrity of the game, then Gamblers and Steroid users should be treated the same.
Rose - out
Palmiero - out
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runslow
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 11:34 Post subject:
| HighHeat wrote: | For the record, the Dowd report had evidence that Pete Rose betted from 1984-1987.
What people forget, is that he was a player-manager from '84-'86
So he was betting while he was still playing.
In terms of criminal activity, betting may not be as severe as murder, but in terms of how it affects the game of baseball....betting on your own team definitely destroys the integrity of the game...and if you're after preserving the integrity of the game, then Gamblers and Steroid users should be treated the same.
Rose - out
Palmiero - out |
I don't remember the Dowd report being conclusive.
Here's what ESPN reported:
"The official Dowd Report says "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds."
Dowd said Thursday he was asked by the Post whether he came across any evidence that Rose gambled against his team. Dowd said he told the paper there was some, but it was inconclusive.
"I was never able to tie it down,'' Dowd said. "It was unreliable, and that's why I didn't include it in the report. I probably shouldn't have said it."
Who knows ....
I guess the reason I like running is that it's simple, I can do it by myself, I don't need steroids and I'm not betting on how fast I can run.
Last edited by runslow on 08/08/05 - 16:52; edited 1 time in total
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j1miller
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 13:31 Post subject:
I don't think he bet against them... for them, but not against them, and I don't really care if he did anyway. 
I love him no matter what he did.
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thegman
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 21:54 Post subject:
| j1miller wrote: |
Didn't Rose win the World Series as a Manager? |
No. None of the teams he managed finished higher than 2nd in the division.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 08/08/05 - 23:21 Post subject:
| j1miller wrote: | I don't think he bet against them... for them, but not against them, and I don't really care if he did anyway.
I love him no matter what he did. |
Even he knowing violated the stated MLB rules? Sounds like you want to choose which MLB rules apply to Rose and which ones do not.
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j1miller
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Posted: 08/09/05 - 08:23 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | j1miller wrote: | I don't think he bet against them... for them, but not against them, and I don't really care if he did anyway.
I love him no matter what he did. |
Even he knowing violated the stated MLB rules? Sounds like you want to choose which MLB rules apply to Rose and which ones do not. |
sounds like you have me figured out pretty well
He's a friend of the family (my uncle's friend from way, way back). I'm pretty loyal as far as that goes.
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marathonrnr262
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Posted: 08/09/05 - 08:59 Post subject:
They should both be banned forever from the field and anything remotely even associated with the game. They are cheaters and cheaters should not be allowed to profit from wrong doings.
Any records or stats mean nothing if the way they were achieved are done by artificial means or are doubtable do to questionable merit.
Sheldon
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