Protein/Supplement Choices
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JACKED UP
PRESIDENT
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Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 21238
Location: www.johnnydu.com
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 Posted: 11/19/05 - 12:42 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: | I would like to interrupt this thread to gently remind everyone....
Let's all remember we are all of varying abilities here, from "I ran for the first time today" to "I won my marathon today" with the majority lying in the "I enjoy running for fun or fitness" range. We come here (hopefully) seeking the casual non medical advice of our running peers, nothing more. Several here work in areas that include many of these questions asked here and often graciously offer their professional opinions for free. I think we are all due our own opinions, let's try to respect each other and our wide ranges of experience.
We also need to remember (with all due respect to everyone here) that despite any credentials anyone claims, we don't KNOW everyone here and your best advice is sought from your own doctors and professionals in your real life, and this, like any other website out there, isn't necessarily a great source of long standing research, but merely, runner's exhanging tips and ideas, like you would standing around after your neighborhood 5k.
Lets play nice. Don't make me use my hall monitor functions, peeps. |
Exactly. Thanks.
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JUJR
Grunt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1970
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Posted: 11/19/05 - 17:59 Post subject:
| JACKED UP wrote: | | cherylpf wrote: | I would like to interrupt this thread to gently remind everyone....
Let's all remember we are all of varying abilities here, from "I ran for the first time today" to "I won my marathon today" with the majority lying in the "I enjoy running for fun or fitness" range. We come here (hopefully) seeking the casual non medical advice of our running peers, nothing more. Several here work in areas that include many of these questions asked here and often graciously offer their professional opinions for free. I think we are all due our own opinions, let's try to respect each other and our wide ranges of experience.
We also need to remember (with all due respect to everyone here) that despite any credentials anyone claims, we don't KNOW everyone here and your best advice is sought from your own doctors and professionals in your real life, and this, like any other website out there, isn't necessarily a great source of long standing research, but merely, runner's exhanging tips and ideas, like you would standing around after your neighborhood 5k.
Lets play nice. Don't make me use my hall monitor functions, peeps. |
Exactly. Thanks. |
 yeah what the girls said
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drwright
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Posted: 11/19/05 - 21:37 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: | | ...We come here (hopefully) seeking the casual non medical advice of our running peers, nothing more... |
If that's true, then this board will languish in the inane and unscientific. I hope you don't really mean that. I think it's fine to challenge anyone's statements here and to engage in scientific discourse. The forum is entitled "Health, Wellness and Nutrition", all three being scientific topics, correct? If all this forum can do is small talk as after a 5K run, then it will do a great disservice to the many who have come here for good information. I think the readers of this forum deserve better. The readers certainly are intelligent enough to recognize BS from science. Those who can defend their position will likely be listened to, and those who offer little more than casual heresay or cheap advertising, without scientific support, will probably not. How is that a bad thing?
Nutrition is a scientific field. There is a great deal of misinformation out there, from literally hundreds of diet books to soundbites and news briefs that at best summarize some useful information, but at worst, don't even come close to reality. Even the authors of scientific papers sometimes draw conclusions thier own data do not support. How can a media outlet begin to report any scientific truth? Where should a group like the readers of this forum go for accurate information? Shouldn't this forum be a place where they can at least see and read the various sides to an issue and decide for themselves?
I believe it is important for readers of this thread, and this website, to be exposed to all sides of a story. Let the reader be the judge. Scientific discourse is very often confrontational, and it is perfectly fine to attack ideas. I would agree with you that ad hominem remarks be disregarded. Attacking the person is not cool. But attacking ideas is perfectly alright in the real world, and in the scientific community to which I belong. Is there a reason why it shouldn't be just fine here?
Runners are intelligent people, in my experience. I don't think we need to "dumb down" this thread. People want real information, and websites like this have a real opportunity to give them real information, or at least different educated viewpoints. That's a good thing.
I have not attacked any person here, just some of the ideas I am seeing printed.
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JACKED UP
PRESIDENT
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Posted: 11/19/05 - 22:35 Post subject:
drwright I respect your opinion it's your delivery I have an issue with. I own a gym and am also a certified personal trainer and group fitness instructor. However, I would never dismiss anyones advice/opinion as BS period. It's not nice. And do you really think people come here for professional medical advice? I too have initials after my name, so what. It doesn't make me smarter than others. I have given specific weight routines to many people here that I consider friends who are grateful for my help. You have some valid points and sound advice just as others do here. Is it possible to provide your advice without disrespecting the advice of others? Dismissing someones comments as complete BS is disrespectful. I have nothing more to say.
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drwright
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Posted: 11/20/05 - 07:31 Post subject:
| JACKED UP wrote: | | ...Is it possible to provide your advice without disrespecting the advice of others? Dismissing someones comments as complete BS is disrespectful... |
As you well know, it is not always possible to provide advice without being in direct opposition to others' advice. If two opinions are at polar opposites, it cannot be possible NOT to disrespect the other's advice. I cannot respect advice that is given out of ignorance, greed, advertising, marketing, hearsay or pseudoscience. Can you?
Sometimes comments ARE "complete BS". Calling them that is sometimes being truthful. Is truth hard to digest? Sometimes it is, I agree. But it's not being disrespectful, it's being confrontational. Not all confrontation is bad. Saying, for example, that "whey protein is bad for recovery since there is ammonia build-up" is utter crap. I'm attacking the idea, not the person. There is no disrespect for the person. There is, however, great disrespect for the idea.
People are free to call my ideas "BS" as well, if they so choose. They'd better have some scientific support, or at least some experiential support for their statements. As I said above, readers will make up their own minds. Scientific support for your statements will likely gain your advice more respect, as it should. I would not have come on so strongly if some of the statements at this board were not so outrageously false or dangerous, and even damaging. Some of the so-called "advice" given here could be very damaging if a person were to take it seriously. I'm simply here to offer some balance.
Last edited by drwright on 11/20/05 - 11:35; edited 1 time in total
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 11/20/05 - 09:31 Post subject:
To reiterate, my previous post in this thread was directed at everyone, not just one or two posters. My hope is that we can all exchange knowledge respectfully. This forum does encompass a wide range of topics from the most definitely inane recipes of cooks who also run casually, to more emergent medical questions. Again, I do not want to discourage anyone from posting, be it the nutritionally ignorant accountant training for a 1/2 marathon or cross country high school freshman to the pros we have around here, and I especially appreciate those with professional experience who are willing to dispense their advice for free to do so. I just ask all posters to be respectful of others' opinions, whether or not they agree. I believe good examples of respectfully disagreeing could be found in several of the threads in the On Topic forum. (probably some good examples of disrespectfully disagreeing could be found in some of the locked threads  )
I do think providing sources for your information is a great idea. That way when reading a post it is obvious whether the poster's reference was from personal experience, the National Enquirer, a medical journal, runner's world, Oprah, etc. At times those with weaker positions may not be listened to (and as always I encourage us all to be discriminating readers) but there becomes a gray area on personal experience. I can research PubMed all day but I can't really refute what has worked well for you and your training and health, and I certainly encourage those to post their own experiences that worked for them. Unless of course the poster specifically asked to not receive such advice I guess (in which case too I would think that poster could do their own research of scientific journals as well as any of us could). What is great about a forum like this, in my opinion, is finding out those little tips that aren't published and don't become widely spread great ideas until down the road. As you've certainly seen, nothing is proven in research, there are always outliers, there are always exceptions to the rule.
Finally and quickly, I do discourage the dispensing of medical advice here. The discussion of a medical issue is certainly welcome, but I'm not comfortable with diagnosing patients who ask "what is wrong with me and how do I fix it?" in an online setting given very limited information and history. That is what I mean by "non-medical" advice, not necessarily anything that has come up in this thread.
Cheers!
PS This isn't my forum, I'm just the moderator, and I think a flexible and reasonable one at that. Feel free to PM me with any questions, comments, ideas or scathing reviews.
And Sydney Runner, if you ever come back, sorry for hijacking your thread!! 
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 11/20/05 - 10:08 Post subject: Re: Protein/Supplement Choices
Now for my opinion/question (see how I just switch-hit there )
| drwright wrote: | Stay with whey! It is far more biologically active than ANY other protein, including eggs (although eggs are good). I'd look at what you're consuming 15 minutes after a training session, and I'd recommend Endurox R4 exactly 15 minutes post-workout. If you don't like their stuff, try something with carb and protein, glutamine, and electrolytes and do the math. You want a 5-6% solution in water of carbohydrate, with a 4:1 ratio of carb to protein. Add very littel sea salt and take a glutamine supplement.
The great thing about whey is that is has both glutamine and BCAA (branched-chain amino acids) in ample amounts. GOOD LUCK! |
I have some nutritional intolerances (well, and I'm cheap!) and prefer to eat "real" foods when possible. Being lazy, what can you suggest that has your ratios of C6O12H6/protein and water and glutamine? Eggs on whole wheat toast? Any other essential AA's you recommend post workout?
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drwright
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Posted: 11/20/05 - 11:33 Post subject: Re: Protein/Supplement Choices
| cherylpf wrote: | | I have some nutritional intolerances (well, and I'm cheap!) and prefer to eat "real" foods when possible. Being lazy, what can you suggest that has your ratios of C6O12H6/protein and water and glutamine? Eggs on whole wheat toast? Any other essential AA's you recommend post workout? |
First of all, whey is "real" food. But given that it mostly comes in powdered form these days, I get your point. All you have to do is the math in grams. For recovery purposes, you want high glycemic index foods right after a run, and as I said, a banana is not too bad a choice. But you can do much better! Raw pineapple would be a better choice. Diabetic diets will give you good information on what is a low versus high glycemic index food. Examples, honey, table sugar, maple syrup, a French baguette, raisins, dates, and even those kids' fruit roll-ups. Just check your local diabetes website for that.
As far as protein is concerned, fish, meat and eggs have higher biological value than vegetable and nut sources of protein.
But nothing is more convenient than whey and high glycemic index carb powders with all the right stuff mixed in. And to answer your question, all the essential AA's are important post-workout, with BCAA and glutamine having the most research of late. There are other things important to post-workout, most important being a cool-down at about 40% MHR (max heart rate ) for about 15 minutes.
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