No discussion of Rather-gate?
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sonnylax
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 Posted: 09/16/04 - 16:29 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: | | Sonny if this were the other way around, the press would be demanding the truth. Interesting how things change. |
Free speech only works if you lean left.
Could you begin to imagine the media response if the SwiftVets/Brit Hume produced a fake document claiming that Kerry was AWOL in Vietnam?
Last edited by sonnylax on 09/16/04 - 16:32; edited 1 time in total
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sonnylax
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Posted: 09/16/04 - 16:31 Post subject:
It's been over a week since CBS first broadcast the memo's. 7 days. Why is Dan Rather and/or his producer still employed?
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andydp
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Posted: 09/16/04 - 17:10 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | It's been over a week since CBS first broadcast the memo's. 7 days. Why is Dan Rather and/or his producer still employed? |
Reality check:
Please no love lost for Dan R. But...
To successfully sue for slander/libel you have to prove even though the person knew the facts were wrong, that they published it anyway.
CBS will do some sort of "Investigation" and come up with Dan R and producer used the material in "good faith" thinking it was real.
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Cappy
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Posted: 09/16/04 - 17:42 Post subject:
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andydp
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 08:46 Post subject:
Latest news accounts seems to indicate there is a VERY big flap about this in the CBS offices. Film at 11
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RexRacer
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 10:15 Post subject:
Hm, can't believe I'm about to wade into this one, but here goes. . .
1. Clearly there was some hanky-panky about the sourcing of the documents themselves as presented at CBS.
2. Doesn't anyone care that those people involved with the documents and the case at the time say that the information in them is correct?!
"Killian's former secretary, Marian Carr Knox, 86, of Houston has said she believed the memos were fake but their content accurately reflected Killian's opinions.
"I know that I didn't type them," she said in an interview with CBS. "[b]However, the information in those is correct." [/b]
See more here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040916/ap_on_el_pr/bush_guard_questions
Like we didn't all know, nor have known for some time, that Bush used family connections to get a coveted spot in a prestigious ceremonial unit, served well for a while, and then got bored or drunk or high too much to regularly show up, finagled some transfer which he didn't honor, and then finally used his family connections again to get an honorable discharge even after he failed to show up for a physical (which was tantamount to being AWOL for a pilot in his status) when by all rights and regs at the time his name should have been served up to his draft board as a prime A-1 potential draftee.
Of course, the "liberal Media" which put the whole Swift Boat crap on page one for days is ignoring the fact that everyone involved with the TXANG and Bush at the time is validating the heart of the issue (Pro-war, well-connected rich boy uses family power and influence to avoid hazardous duty, and even then doesn't fully complete his obligations) and is instead focusing on the source of the documents. What about the sources of the people validating the contents of the documents?
Pravda on the Hudson strikes again!!!!
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sonnylax
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 11:54 Post subject:
Rex - You are absolutely killing me.
1. "Despite the forged documents, the information in the memos is correct" - I'm completely laughing my rear end off! That is your standard for accuracy? It's now OK to forge a military document as long as it proves your point? Do you know how ridiculous and desperate this makes the left sound? The fake documents are all the proof we need. Believe us, we are the big media. Right.... I've got some official memos that say Meg Ryan had an orgasm in the diner scene from 'When Harry Met Sally.' That did happened, right?
2. The SwiftBoat Vets have been around since April. They held a press conference in DC that was virtually ignored by the national media. Where was Katie Curic, Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, etc. then or over the summer? (Probably too busy interviewing Richard Clarke, etc. to make their case.) Where were the front page news stories and the morning news show interviews? The SwiftVets only got some press when Kerry & Co. finally felt some heat and started to dispute their ads in mid-August. You can disput them as partisan if you will, but 250+ Vietnam Veterans have signed affidavids on the record. The leader of the SwiftVets has declared that Kerry sue him in court if he is wrong. You be the judge.
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RexRacer
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 12:51 Post subject:
Sonny,
You take a reasonably long post and pull out that what suits you to mock and disregard the crux of it.
Reminds me of the Bush-Cheney campaign.
Anyway, yes, this document is questionable, no doubt. It'll be interesting to see its genesis. I would highly doubt it came from Kerry because I don't think they have the stomach (let alone cojones) to pull it off. Their whole hallmark has been timidity and caution, which is why he's in the situ he is now.
That aside, you still have chosen to ignore what appears to be a central truth. Everyone still living who had any dealings with this topic at all is in agreement that Bush used his family connections, to get into the Guard, to get a transfer, and then to get out of the Guard with an honorable discharge. They are in full agreement with the quote in the document that his superiors in the TXANG were pressured to "sugarcoat" Bush's record.
Put it to you all this way:
If you have a co-worker who's a complete jagoff, and 30 years later are asked about this guy and you say he's a complete jagoff, and your colleagues from those days recall it the same way, does it really matter if there's a paper trail to confirm your recollections that he was, in fact, a jagoff? Indeed it would be nice. Preferrable. But does the absence of one OR the presence of a shoddy knock-off invalidate your memories, or those of your co-workers?!
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omega lambda
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:05 Post subject:
I think people care as much about Bush's Nat'l Guard days as they do about Kerry's Vietnam days and how he got his purple hearts and whether he lied about Cambodia, blah blah blah. Personally, I don't care about what happened 30 years ago, because neither man is who he was then (young and reckless, as if no one else is, will be or ever was). It's who they are today, and what they do today that matters (within reason).
What is still amazing me is that I don't think this is a political issue, it's a media issue with serious implications, and no one seems to care.
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omega lambda
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:07 Post subject:
| RexRacer wrote: |
Put it to you all this way:
If you have a co-worker who's a complete jagoff, and 30 years later are asked about this guy and you say he's a complete jagoff, and your colleagues from those days recall it the same way, does it really matter if there's a paper trail to confirm your recollections that he was, in fact, a jagoff? Indeed it would be nice. Preferrable. But does the absence of one OR the presence of a shoddy knock-off invalidate your memories, or those of your co-workers?! |
All it amounts to is gossip, though. How much is gossip worth?
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robp
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:16 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: | I think people care as much about Bush's Nat'l Guard days as they do about Kerry's Vietnam days and how he got his purple hearts and whether he lied about Cambodia, blah blah blah. Personally, I don't care about what happened 30 years ago, because neither man is who he was then (young and reckless, as if no one else is, will be or ever was). It's who they are today, and what they do today that matters (within reason).
What is still amazing me is that I don't think this is a political issue, it's a media issue with serious implications, and no one seems to care. |
You hit the nail on the head OL. It's a media issue, nothing else. Everybody knows W pulled some strings to avoid Nam and most people don't care at this point. It's what a lot of people did if they had the power to do so. Kerry went and Bush has commended him on his service. What somebody did or didn't do thirty years ago really doesn't have much bearing on what that person is capable of doing today. My personal opinion of Kerry is that he is a waffler with some big ideas and no friggin' idea how to execute any of them.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:32 Post subject:
While the documents themselves may be false, the Texas National Guard was ordered to destroy any documents that would "embarrass" the Governor. There are people who served with Bush saying the documents did at one time exist and they said what the forgeries did.
And I can assure you Dubya is not honest enough to admit he did not serve as long as no one can come up with any of the original documents he had destroyed.
Besides, how do you know this entire thing was nothing more than a Republican plant to draw criticism away from Dubya?
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sonnylax
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:33 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | | Besides, how do you know this entire thing was nothing more than a Republican plant to draw criticism away from Dubya? |
If that is true, the media is much, much, much more stupid then I thought.
Last edited by sonnylax on 09/17/04 - 13:45; edited 1 time in total
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andydp
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:34 Post subject:
I'll go with Rex on this one. Despite the fact the documents are probably false, the base fact is credible witnesses are saying it pretty much covers Dubyas performance in the TXANG. If I remember correctly no one from the ALANG has come forward to say they saw Dubya in Alabama either.
Let me give a story based on personal experience in the CTARNG. In the 70's we had our share of guys just like W. In fact some of the lower ranking people were lawyers, business owners and the like. Not run of the mill lower enlisted people. They were just there for the 6 years to get out of going to Vietnam.
The performance of these individuals could only be described as marginal and that's being kind. Try as the commanders wanted to, it was virtually impossible to get rid of these people. THE major factor was the state had to keep up its "numbers". It almost did not matter if these people actually did anything just as long as the name was on the rolls. I can remember one guy was so worthless it took us years to get rid of him. We finally managed to get rid of him after he had been convicted of a felony. This game finally collapsed on the states about 1980 when it was found lots of these "ghosts" were getting paid but surprise !! The unit technicians were pocketing their checks
In a technical sense "AWOL" in the Guard is not as serious as on Active Duty. All it basically means is you're not there for weekend drill and you made no alternate plans to train. You're NOT on Federal status which would make you eligible for the MP's to come get you. People have and still do drills in other states if they will be there for an extended period. BUT the home state gets reports on them. With computerized attendance and pay systems its very easy to see if your person is actually drilling.
NY State has an excellent Military Law. This law makes it possible for the NYS Police to actually go and arrest people for being AWOL. After a certain number of unexcused absences (AWOL) the person is processed out with an "unsatisfactory" discharge. If they have a comittment left then they are transferred to the USAR where they become eligible for individual callups. If they don't show up they get arrested.
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RexRacer
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Posted: 09/17/04 - 13:45 Post subject:
| omega lambda wrote: | | it's a media issue with serious implications, and no one seems to care. |
Indeed. My guess is CBS will say they had some verification and will take some lumps but little more. . .Could get really interesting if they can source that thing.
Switching to the other media/quote scandal unfolding I read today that Judith Miller was being forced to testify about her knowledge in the Valerie Plame affair. Walter Pinkus was released from his confidentiality by his source over the weekend and apparently gave a deposition.
Early signs are that Plame was outed as CIA operative by someone in the VPs office, with most suspicion falling on his Chief of Staff, 'Scooter' Libby.
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