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Gogirlgo
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 Posted: 11/03/04 - 10:46 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| jrjo wrote: |
I really feel that the legacy of the Clinton presidency (and if you watch Letterman/Leno/et al, it's confirmed daily) is the moral looseness of the Democratic party. Regardless of what Congresspeople, Governors or other officials from either side of the aisle might do, as the highest elected official in the land, Clinton has established a point on the moral spectrum that the Democratic party cannot disjoint itself from as long as he is around and as long as voters remember his term. And that compared to President Bush who has demonstrated a life similar to many of overcoming difficulties of youth, being reborn, dried out and now committed to family, church and country. |
Interesting. I see Bush as far more amoral than Clinton.
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megawill
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 10:51 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| jrjo wrote: |
I really feel that the legacy of the Clinton presidency (and if you watch Letterman/Leno/et al, it's confirmed daily) is the moral looseness of the Democratic party. Regardless of what Congresspeople, Governors or other officials from either side of the aisle might do, as the highest elected official in the land, Clinton has established a point on the moral spectrum that the Democratic party cannot disjoint itself from as long as he is around and as long as voters remember his term. And that compared to President Bush who has demonstrated a life similar to many of overcoming difficulties of youth, being reborn, dried out and now committed to family, church and country. |
Thanks, John...you've come the closest to addressing the topic that I'm interested in here.
I consider myself a christian, although as a catholic I have deep concerns with the direction of my church. John Kerry, though some would paint him otherwise is a deeply religous and spiritual man. Why are the evangelic christians so tied to the republicans, why do they want their 'moral' and 'religous' beliefs written into law? Is it just me or am I the only one here that distinguishes between morality and religion?
Please, don't take anything I say in this thread the wrong way, I'm just truly trying to come to a deeper understanding of this phenomena....
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megawill
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 11:00 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| megawill wrote: | | Why are the evangelic christians so tied to the republicans, why do they want their 'moral' and 'religous' beliefs written into law? |
I went out on the web looking for some info on this. This is from a study on Fundamentalism by the University of Chicago:
1. Their rules must be made to apply to all people, and to all areas of life. There can be no separation of church and state, or of public and private areas of life. The rigid rules of God — and they never doubt that they and only they have got these right — must become the law of the land. Pat Robertson, again, has said that just as Supreme Court justices place a hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution, so they should also place a hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible. In Khomeini’s Iran of two decades ago, and in the recent Taliban rule of Afghanistan, we saw how brutal and bloody this looks in real time.
2. The second agenda item is really at the top of the list, and it’s vulgarly simple: Men are on top. In every way. Men are bigger and stronger, and they rule not only through physical strength, but also and more importantly through their influence on the laws and rules of the land. Men set the boundaries. Men define the norms, and men enforce them. They also define women, and they define them through narrowly-conceived biological functions. Women are to be supportive wives, mothers, and home-makers.
3. A third item follows from the others — indeed all of these agenda items are necessarily interlocked, and need each other to survive. Since there is only one right picture of the world, one right set of beliefs, and one right set of roles for men, women and children, it is imperative that this picture and these norms and rules be communicated precisely to the next generation. Therefore, they must control the education of the society. They control the textbooks, the teaching styles, they decide what may and may not be taught. In Afghanistan, women were denied any education at all beyond basic literacy – and sometimes not even that much. And in our own country it was a long and hard battle to get women access to college and professional educations and credentials.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 11:03 Post subject:
| Sahara wrote: | | Do you have someone in mind? Were you thinking of a woman? |
possibly....or someone that didn't drip wealth. Someone that projected themselves as middle-class, or even an underdog being a minority by color or religion. Someone in mind? Lieberman. Kerry wasn't going to get the fundie Christian vote.
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 11:07 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| keltic63 wrote: |
I went out on the web looking for some info on this. This is from a study on Fundamentalism by the University of Chicago: |
Very interesting--thanks for finding this
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jrjo
Gone Fishin
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 11:12 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| megawill wrote: | | Why are the evangelic christians so tied to the republicans, why do they want their 'moral' and 'religous' beliefs written into law? Is it just me or am I the only one here that distinguishes between morality and religion? |
I think for many, morals are based in their religion, I know that's much of the case for me, so in the context of separating the two, it becomes one and the same often.
As for writing beliefs into law, I really don't think in anyone's heart of hearts that's the priority agenda. Religious liberty is far more important than legalizing specific beliefs. But what I see the mile-high position is that conservatives as a whole are trying to stop a slippery slide. Morally, our society has become a culture of pushing the envelope further and further out. Stopping that slide is what I see much of the Republican movement.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 11:22 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Interesting. I see Bush as far more amoral than Clinton. |
I thought I had poor eyesight, you've got to be kidding! I'm not even talking about his little tea time with the lady in blue. Nobody's bizzness. Tell the country MYOB.....but he lied to his wife.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 11:59 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| runaroundsue wrote: |
I thought I had poor eyesight, you've got to be kidding! I'm not even talking about his little tea time with the lady in blue. Nobody's bizzness. Tell the country MYOB.....but he lied to his wife. |
Sue, do I seem like someone who minces words to you? No, I'm not kidding. I see George Bush as a morally bankrupt person and I'd attach that label to the main guys of his administration, too.
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copteacher
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 12:01 Post subject:
morally bankrupt how?
Melessia that is a heck of a statement to make.
I see him as a man of principle. He is not the most articulate speakers but he seems genuine.
He is a man of God who has made some mistakes but I think even this election the best people decided.
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elkid
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 12:12 Post subject:
| robp wrote: | | A nation of church going, pro-family and pro-life people scares the hell out of you? You would prefer a nation of heathens (like me) who don't care about family and and/or the unborn? |
Just because you don't go to church does not make you a heathen. How many people who practice organized religion sleep through church or don't heed its message? Define "pro family" in a modern context - you can only do so on multiple levels. Pro Mom, Dad, 2 kids family? Pro 2 Moms family? Pro single Mom family? Big gap in definition there, so my idea of pro-family is not necessarily yours. And I am not touching the whole legitimacy of unborn status issues. I have a serious problem with the traditional stereotype of church going, pro-family, pro-life people. A stereotype that has not changed with the times, and a stereotype that certain politicos are trying to return to. The 50s are over - we can't go back, we must evolve, so do so.
| jrjo wrote: | | I really feel that the legacy of the Clinton presidency (and if you watch Letterman/Leno/et al, it's confirmed daily) is the moral looseness of the Democratic party. |
Thank you for reminding me that one person is an entire political party. I guess that means that all Republicans are fearmongerers then?
| jrjo wrote: | | Religious liberty is far more important than legalizing specific beliefs. ...Morally, our society has become a culture of pushing the envelope further and further out. Stopping that slide is what I see much of the Republican movement. |
1) Yet remember that I also have religious liberty, and that yours cannot infringe on mine. Ah, the cusp of the problem.
2) At what cost?
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 12:27 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: | morally bankrupt how?
Melessia that is a heck of a statement to make.
I see him as a man of principle. He is not the most articulate speakers but he seems genuine.
He is a man of God who has made some mistakes but I think even this election the best people decided. |
First off: M-E-L-I-S-S-A. OK? Thanks.
I'm not questioning that you see him as a man of principle, although I would argue that even if he were a man of God, that in no way means he is by definition moral. (See pedophile priests.) By mistakes I assume you mean his former drug usage. I'm not addressing that either. I don't think drug usage, especially drug usage in the past, relates at all to a person's moral fiber.
His ability to articulate is not the issue. I would address what "I think even this election the best people decided" means because I can't because it seems like there are words missing there.
To begin to address his moral bankrupcy takes more time than I have right now but considerations like short-sightedness and Americentrism are part of it. A general arrogance that doesn't consider any of the other people on this planet but makes decisions that impact them is also part of it. An utter unwillingness to look at the last four years and concede one single error. These are not the hallmarks of a leader, to me. Morals are adhering to standards of right and wrong, and in a world suddenly complicated like ours, it's much less black and white than he makes it out to be.
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AlaninTX
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 12:48 Post subject:
This is not directed at anyone or any particular post. Just a very gentle reminder that right now emotions are quite raw for everyone.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 15:11 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Sue, do I seem like someone who minces words to you? No, I'm not kidding. I see George Bush as a morally bankrupt person and I'd attach that label to the main guys of his administration, too. |
I see ALL politicians that way. However, someone that blatantly lies to a person he supposedly loves.....why would they ever tell the truth?
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 15:32 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| runaroundsue wrote: |
I see ALL politicians that way. However, someone that blatantly lies to a person he supposedly loves.....why would they ever tell the truth? |
What about a person who lies to his country he supposedly loves to justify a war he’s determined to have. I take marital infidelity seriously, but at least Clinton’s family were the only ones hurt because of his lies.
Melissa did a very good job of summing up why Bush may be religious but not truly moral.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 11/03/04 - 15:37 Post subject: Re: Moral Values
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | What about a person who lies to his country he supposedly loves to justify a war he’s determined to have. I take marital infidelity seriously, but at least Clinton’s family were the only ones hurt because of his lies. |
You might want to add a few names to those hurt by Clinton's lies - Paula Jones, Gennifer Flowers, or Juanita Broderick.
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