Moderator Split-women vs mens wages
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sonnylax
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 Posted: 06/01/05 - 15:35 Post subject:
| TOsteve wrote: | | How do you explain the under representation of women in countless professional careers and the undeniable wage difference between men and women working in similar jobs. Just for starters. |
That's easy. Many women leave the workplace for multiple years during the prime of their careers to start families & raise children. Those that choose that path, do not acrue experience in the work place, maintain accreditions, further their formal education, etc. They also do not merit salary increases like their counterparts (both male and female) who continue their careers without interruptions and do not leave the workplace. Thus the wage difference you cite.
| robp wrote: | | Much of the under representation of women in professional careers can be traced back to the college career paths they have chosen. From my own personal experience working with a few of the women who have chosen careers in the engineering field they have performed quite well and been compensated fairly. |
Same experience for me personally (coming from Georgia Tech and currently working in the telcom/engineering field). The small percentage of women who have chosen engineering careers have done very well (just like most men). There isn't alot of them, though. All you have to do is look at the starting salaries for a liberal arts degree compared to an engineering or science degree (and then compare enrollment figures by sex).
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 06/01/05 - 16:50 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: |
Same experience for me personally (coming from Georgia Tech and currently working in the telcom/engineering field). The small percentage of women who have chosen engineering careers have done very well (just like most men). There isn't alot of them, though. All you have to do is look at the starting salaries for a liberal arts degree compared to an engineering or science degree (and then compare enrollment figures by sex). |
you won't even convince a moderate, SAHM like me that the playing field is even for women. Maybe in some professional fields where demand outweighs demand such as healthcare where women can negotiate their pay.
And if men were having the babies, there would be more time off mandated.....oh wait a minute......family leave act isn't just for women is it? Don't bring up the "starting a family" issue. My sister returned to work quicker after a c-section than my father with hernia surgery. Yes, I know, hernia surgery is painful and childbirth has been done since the beginning of mankind 
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robp
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Posted: 06/01/05 - 20:29 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
Exactly. A woman "plays the game" and she's seen as pushy, over bearing, a ball buster, dyke, biotch, and un-ladylike. A man does the same and he's seen as tough, competetive, and hard working - a man to be admired. |
I disagree with you wholeheartedly CB based on 25+ years in an engineering/manufacturing environment where women have advanced considerably into management roles. Granted, mine is a fairly narrow cut of the big picture but I can only speak from my experience. Very few have advanced into staff management level positions because we tend to promote from technical backgrounds - people who have gained their experience thru working, engineering and managing at the shop floor level. Women tend to gravitate towards design engineeering and IT type positions while garnering little if any shop experience.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 06/01/05 - 20:52 Post subject:
Sonny, your argument has merit but all things being equal, that is to say, men and women who start out in the same field with the same degree and experience, or lack thereof, don't make the same salary. How does your explanation cover that?
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TOsteve
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 05:09 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: |
Same experience for me personally (coming from Georgia Tech and currently working in the telcom/engineering field). The small percentage of women who have chosen engineering careers have done very well (just like most men). There isn't alot of them, though. All you have to do is look at the starting salaries for a liberal arts degree compared to an engineering or science degree (and then compare enrollment figures by sex). |
I come from a mechanical engineering background. I know how hard it was for the 11 women in my class of 132 to fit in with the culture of the engineering department.
I've also seen gender discrimination play a factor in the hiring process at a company I worked for. The engineering manager, essentially, liked his 'boys' club and was worried about the kind of effect hiring a woman would have on the department enevironment.
I also had a discussion with one of our shop supervisors at my current company who was hiring a new welder/fitter. The best candidate he interviewed (according to skill level and experience) was a woman but he was faced with the dilemma of being worried about how to deal with the reaction of a lot of the shop floor employees. He worried that she wouldn't fit in with the shop 'culture'.
But anecdotal evidence aside - we have to admit to ourselves that we see plenty of 'sub-cultures' every day in our workplaces that, legally, woman have every right to join. Unfortunately the sub-culture deters them - does that make women to blame for being unrepresented? We still have a long way to go before the field is even close to even. I think we have to be deluding ourselves to see things differently. It would be nice to hear from other men on this board who see this too.
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TOsteve
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 05:09 Post subject:
Double post.
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robp
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 06:20 Post subject:
| TOsteve wrote: |
I come from a mechanical engineering background. I know how hard it was for the 11 women in my class of 132 to fit in with the culture of the engineering department.
I've also seen gender discrimination play a factor in the hiring process at a company I worked for. The engineering manager, essentially, liked his 'boys' club and was worried about the kind of effect hiring a woman would have on the department enevironment.
I also had a discussion with one of our shop supervisors at my current company who was hiring a new welder/fitter. The best candidate he interviewed (according to skill level and experience) was a woman but he was faced with the dilemma of being worried about how to deal with the reaction of a lot of the shop floor employees. He worried that she wouldn't fit in with the shop 'culture'.
But anecdotal evidence aside - we have to admit to ourselves that we see plenty of 'sub-cultures' every day in our workplaces that, legally, woman have every right to join. Unfortunately the sub-culture deters them - does that make women to blame for being unrepresented? We still have a long way to go before the field is even close to even. I think we have to be deluding ourselves to see things differently. It would be nice to hear from other men on this board who see this too. |
We have several women in our shops that have fit in very well. Just like anyone else, once the guys figure out a woman knows what she's doing she is accepted just like anyone else.
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TOsteve
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 06:46 Post subject:
| robp wrote: |
We have several women in our shops that have fit in very well. Just like anyone else, once the guys figure out a woman knows what she's doing she is accepted just like anyone else. |
So in your world, gender discrimination doesn't exist.
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robp
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 06:48 Post subject:
| TOsteve wrote: |
So in your world, gender discrimination doesn't exist. |
In my place of employment there is little if any gender discrimination.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 07:06 Post subject:
| TOsteve wrote: | I come from a mechanical engineering background. I know how hard it was for the 11 women in my class of 132 to fit in with the culture of the engineering department.
I've also seen gender discrimination play a factor in the hiring process at a company I worked for. The engineering manager, essentially, liked his 'boys' club and was worried about the kind of effect hiring a woman would have on the department enevironment.
I also had a discussion with one of our shop supervisors at my current company who was hiring a new welder/fitter. The best candidate he interviewed (according to skill level and experience) was a woman but he was faced with the dilemma of being worried about how to deal with the reaction of a lot of the shop floor employees. He worried that she wouldn't fit in with the shop 'culture'.
But anecdotal evidence aside - we have to admit to ourselves that we see plenty of 'sub-cultures' every day in our workplaces that, legally, woman have every right to join. Unfortunately the sub-culture deters them - does that make women to blame for being unrepresented? We still have a long way to go before the field is even close to even. I think we have to be deluding ourselves to see things differently. It would be nice to hear from other men on this board who see this too. |
Self-fullfilling prophesy Steve? People have a right to join a sub-culture? Care to define that further?
I can provide plenty of anecodotal evidence myself in the opposite direction. My area manager (3 levels ahead of me) is a female. She runs a very large division of my company here in Atlanta with 1000+ managers and craft employees, controlling millions of dollars annually. She has an engineering degree and an executive MBA. She doesn't have any kids with her husband who also works in a different division of our company. She obviously made a decision to further her career which is now approaching 30 years long. Did gender discrimination hold her back?
Any time a promotion is granted in my company - Human Resources has to approve said promotion. I have been told by multiple hiring managers that they are sometimes "guided" to take minority candidates for jobs over more highly experienced candidates in order to appease the federal government. I had a promotion opportunity a few weeks ago that I was more then qualified for and my interviews went extremely well. The job went to someone else when HR swooped in at the last minute to "suggest" that the hiring manager take someone else. Please explain to me how that is fair.
I could provide many more pieces of evidence, but I won't bore you. Bottom line, the people (male, female, red, green, yellow, gay, straight, old, young, American Indian, or any other label you want to apply) that put in the hours in the workplace and in the classroom get ahead and stay ahead. At the end of the day, my company cares about getting the job done correctly in the safest and cheapest manner. End of story.
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phillycat
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 07:23 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: |
Self-fullfilling prophesy Steve? People have a right to join a sub-culture? Care to define that further?
I can provide plenty of anecodotal evidence myself in the opposite direction. My area manager (3 levels ahead of me) is a female. She runs a very large division of my company here in Atlanta with 1000+ managers and craft employees, controlling millions of dollars annually. She has an engineering degree and an executive MBA. She doesn't have any kids with her husband who also works in a different division of our company. She obviously made a decision to further her career which is now approaching 30 years long. Did gender discrimination hold her back?
Any time a promotion is granted in my company - Human Resources has to approve said promotion. I have been told by multiple hiring managers that they are sometimes "guided" to take minority candidates for jobs over more highly experienced candidates in order to appease the federal government. I had a promotion opportunity a few weeks ago that I was more then qualified for and my interviews went extremely well. The job went to someone else when HR swooped in at the last minute to "suggest" that the hiring manager take someone else. Please explain to me how that is fair.
I could provide many more pieces of evidence, but I won't bore you. Bottom line, the people (male, female, red, green, yellow, gay, straight, old, young, American Indian, or any other label you want to apply) that put in the hours in the workplace and in the classroom get ahead and stay ahead. At the end of the day, my company cares about getting the job done correctly in the safest and cheapest manner. End of story. |
How do you then explain national statistics that show women consistantly getting paid less than men?
Discrimination still exists regardless of certain instances or examples of women getting ahead. I know. I've been there...and am still there. It happens on a regular basis. One of the reasons why I am piling up on the degrees is to hopefully tip the scales to a more equitable level. Don't get me wrong, I have a good job and the majority of my employees are men...and my boss is a woman. But if you look at just my institution alone, we have only on VP who is a woman who also happens to be the only minority. This is the case across the board in my particular industry. So yes, there are exceptions and I hope to be one of those some day, but to say that if a woman just sets out with the same career aspirations as a man then she will have the same chance of success...that is just not the case.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 07:30 Post subject:
| phillycat wrote: | | How do you then explain national statistics that show women consistantly getting paid less than men? |
Did you even read my previous post in this same thread?
http://runningforums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=448167#448167
It is explained quite easily. We can't change biology. Women have to make difficult choices between furthering their careers and starting a family.
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phillycat
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 07:47 Post subject:
I don't think that you read my post. What I am saying is that if a woman chooses a career she is still paid less. Apples to apples.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 08:18 Post subject:
if one does not interfere with the other, why should it affect pay? And what of the rising number of women deciding NOT to bear children? I don't understand the biology issue.....so the few weeks that a mom has to take off to give birth affects her pay? Why should it affect a woman that is the working member of the family? I know quite a few SAHD and maybe their working wives should chime in on this. I'm having a hard time believing that you truly believe that the playing field is level. Things must have really changed in the last 10 years.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 06/02/05 - 12:07 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: | | if one does not interfere with the other, why should it affect pay? And what of the rising number of women deciding NOT to bear children? I don't understand the biology issue.....so the few weeks that a mom has to take off to give birth affects her pay? Why should it affect a woman that is the working member of the family? I know quite a few SAHD and maybe their working wives should chime in on this. I'm having a hard time believing that you truly believe that the playing field is level. Things must have really changed in the last 10 years. |
The two things do effect each other. It does effect your earning potential and advancement when women take years off to bear/raise kids. (As it does for SAHD's who leave the workplace.) Many of the studies that report pay disparity among the sexes fail to account for this simple factoid.
Many women take a year (or more) off and they expect to roll back into work at the same rate of pay as their peers (both male and female) who stayed in the workplace all along. Most women don't take off a couple of weeks. They typically take off longer (6 months, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years) when bearing children and sometimes they don't come back to work full-time. Many times they job-share or work partial (10/20 hour) work weeks.
Women who choose to have and raise children won't get to enjoy a 30+ year career and all the pay/benefits that go with that long tenure. That's all. I don't have anything against women in the work place or those women that stay at home. Honest. I envy those families that can afford to start and raise a family on one income.
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