Marathoner hack of the day
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camelia bedelia
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 Posted: 12/04/05 - 00:09 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: | I realize the side conversation here has gone off topic for this thread, but it's my thread, so heck, I'll keep going 
I don't know how to say it any clearer than I did in my previous post. All I can do is to ask for it to be read again and what I follow-up with here and try and understand my point. Really, I'm not making some esoteric far fetched observation.
Although my batting average on analogies here in OT is about .010, bear with me through this one and please try to understand versus constructing a defense against it.
My analogy is one of church missionaries. You might not be familiar with organized church attempts to spread the gospel. My home church is all over the country and all over the world with missionary people doing this work. Now bear with me as I explain this. There are probably 4 levels of missionary work. Let's call the first level "crusade" types of missions. Imagine a Billy Grahm whirlwind in a big city with an evening or two, large auditorium, multi-media presentation. Kind of a shock and awe thing. In all reality, not very effective for making converts or filling pews the next weekend, but a fast way to get someone's attention and throw a pressing topic in their face.
The next level of missionary work is something more like a 2 or 3 week evangelism series where every night presentations are done, studies go on and some real conversions begin to take hold.
Beyond this, especially in foreign countries, indepth missionary work goes on. People move to places like Russia for a year, maybe 2. They spend week in and week out meeting people in their assigned communities and spreading the word, building churches and getting long lasting understanding and Bible studies planted and sustained for when they leave. The results of these missions are extraordinary and really amazing.
And the ultimate in the missionary field is what our church calls frontieer missions. This demands commitments such as 5 years at a time. Places like the depths of Africa are where missionaries like this go. They submerge themselves in cultures so incredibly different than their own, the only way to get gain any kind of trust is to spend minimally a year and often more just being a member of the community before even making the first mention of wanting to build a church. And when the years and years pass by with incredible commitment and inch by inch progress, these church planting missionaries have the most incredible stories of bringing people to Christ, it makes believing in miracles very easy.
So where does all this apply to On-Topic? I hope this makes sense because I really don't know how else to explain what I see. Believe you me, I have no dispute with anyone posting here. It's a free site and wide open, post early and post often, I've got no bones about that. You find something interesting? Go ahead, start a thread. Again, it's free, it's wide open and no one stands in the way. Your number of posts indeed has nothing to do with the number of miles you log. Please keep from making a severe error in judgement about my perceptions.
But.
You knew there'd be a 'but'.
Here's where the analogy comes in.
Realize.
Yes, please realize, what people that are non or near-non runners and members posting nearly exclusively in a non-running forum have done is become the first type of missionary in my analogy. There's no commitment to the 'culture' of runningforums.com. There's no attempts to understand the community. There's no comaraderie with folks in riff-raff. There's almost a denial of the single tie that binds this site together..running. And when you post exclusively (or nearly exclusively) in On-Topic, it creates a persona of being on a 'crusade'. It's no different than a shock and awe strike to throw something in the faces of members knowing there isn't going to be any kind of conversion. Seeds aren't going to be planted. It really is what has come to be known as internet flaming. Baiting. Whatever you want to call it.
I can already hear the responses of "no, I post interesting topics", or "I have a right to post whatever I want". And yes, you are right! But what I'm saying is the entire runningforums.com culture and context puts a very defined light on what you post. As much as we'd like to think "the world wide web" is reading what we type here, reality is maybe a couple lurkers might trip across a post here and there, but bottomline is it's the same 30 or 40 people day-in and day-out we're bringing our words to and that audience does have a culture and it does have a venue of comaraderie in riff-raff. So please understand the severity of your judgement to be a near exclusive political poster and dare I say at times an anti-runner attitude, the inch by inch progress of winning trust and open ears becomes impossible. It really does.
..and of course
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How do you know who is a runner or a non-near runner? How many times and how many miles did I run this week?
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jrjo
Gone Fishin
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Joined: 15 May 2002
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Location: Lake Wobegon, MN
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 00:29 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | How do you know who is a runner or a non-near runner? |
Training tales and race reflections is probably a good start, no? 
But I suppose, somewhere out there in cyberspace, there exists a member or two that could avoid the temptation to share experiences, mileage, advice or anything offered in the many forums we have here.
Beyond the actual "hard" post, my personal perception comes from "what I did on the weekend" threads or the subtle references in riff-raff topics about running.
And really CB, being a site about running and offering little to no contributions to the backbone of the site offers readers nothing but the conclusion to believe that someone is a non or near non-runner. Either that or again what I refer to in relating to one another here as a "community". I really have yet to meet a runner that doesn't have profound and near miraculous experiences in life because of their running or training, whether it be cycling or skating or what have you. This site is blank canvas for sharing those quirky ideals with each other. Pretty much all of us go through life with co-workers, family and realz friends that have no concept of how deep impacting this running lifestyle is. But here it is relished, elevated, accepted and shouted from the rooftops.
So those that are not part of it, on a site promoting running like few, if any, others present themselves here as on the sidelines of this long distance running pursuit, then it is as simple as one plus one to conclude that the particular member is either a non-runner, near non-runner or might as well be if the wellsprings of opportunity, emotion and energy this site emits about running are ignored.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 01:21 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | How do you know who is a runner or a non-near runner? |
Training tales and race reflections is probably a good start, no?
But I suppose, somewhere out there in cyberspace, there exists a member or two that could avoid the temptation to share experiences, mileage, advice or anything offered in the many forums we have here.
Beyond the actual "hard" post, my personal perception comes from "what I did on the weekend" threads or the subtle references in riff-raff topics about running.
And really CB, being a site about running and offering little to no contributions to the backbone of the site offers readers nothing but the conclusion to believe that someone is a non or near non-runner. Either that or again what I refer to in relating to one another here as a "community". I really have yet to meet a runner that doesn't have profound and near miraculous experiences in life because of their running or training, whether it be cycling or skating or what have you. This site is blank canvas for sharing those quirky ideals with each other. Pretty much all of us go through life with co-workers, family and realz friends that have no concept of how deep impacting this running lifestyle is. But here it is relished, elevated, accepted and shouted from the rooftops.
So those that are not part of it, on a site promoting running like few, if any, others present themselves here as on the sidelines of this long distance running pursuit, then it is as simple as one plus one to conclude that the particular member is either a non-runner, near non-runner or might as well be if the wellsprings of opportunity, emotion and energy this site emits about running are ignored. |
Honestly, jrjo, I don't care one way or another what you think about me as a runner. I just don't. You do your thing and I'll do my thing mine. Why can't that be good enough?
I used to be a part of Riff Raff, and I enjoyed it. But now, I just don't have the time to keep up with it. If you aren't there at least frequently every day, it is very hard to keep up with the pace of it; to know the ins and out and the inside jokes. I don't have time for that any more. That's not good or bad, it just is. More a function of my job and my life right now than anything else. When I do have time to sit and get on-line, I want to spend my time on something I enjoy. I don't think I should have to participate a certain percentage of my time in RR, or run a certain amount of chip timed races to meet your criteria of what a poster at runningforums should be.
If PH wants to set those criteria, I'll be glad to respect them. But until then, I'll be a part of the runningforums the way that works for me, and you are free to do the same.
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Joined: 14 May 2002
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 11:12 Post subject:
I'm confused. I could understand this discussion if it were taking place in Mid Packers but I thought these (Riff Raff, On Topic and Reviews) were the off-topic forums where we talked about things non running related, or, in the case of the initial posting of this thread, running related as appropriate. Specifically I remember On Topic being started so there was a place to discuss more serious discussions or debates to separate them out from the lighter Riff Raff. Many forums that I've seen around many varying topics have a section like this, the theme of the forums is what brings everyone together, but we talk about other things with the commonality of whatever brought us to the forum, yet can bring different perspectives from our various experiences and views, and it results in a wide array of opinions. Kind of like real, non-internet life.
Or so I thought. Because we have many regular posters who don't run.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 11:35 Post subject:
maybe an update on "rules" is needed. I thought on topic was for everything, and that would include running also. I thought the difference and the reason for this section was to eliminate "fubby" and make sure that the thread stays on course. I think cheating in any form is a pretty serious discussion. If megawill wanted a discussion on why he thought that some people put more time and effort into marathon cheating versus politicians with hands in a cookie jar, seems to me that he could have created another thread.
If "on topic" is strictly for politics, it should be clearer. and now that it's further off topic......marathon cheaters sucketh!!!
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robp
Pyromaniac
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Joined: 26 Jul 2002
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Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 11:47 Post subject:
It just gets a little old when the vast majority of contributions by some posters on a running forum are political diatribes. They find the time to type out or cut & paste wordy political blatherage and then spend more time vigorously defending their post or denouncing other viewpoints. But, of course, they are entirely too busy to participate in an occasional non-political thread just for the hell of it.
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megawill
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 11:53 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: | maybe an update on "rules" is needed. I thought on topic was for everything, and that would include running also. I thought the difference and the reason for this section was to eliminate "fubby" and make sure that the thread stays on course. I think cheating in any form is a pretty serious discussion. If megawill wanted a discussion on why he thought that some people put more time and effort into marathon cheating versus politicians with hands in a cookie jar, seems to me that he could have created another thread.
If "on topic" is strictly for politics, it should be clearer. and now that it's further off topic......marathon cheaters sucketh!!! |
i never stated that a running topic shouldn't be of topic here...was just making an observation is all...but to me it is very telling how that has seemed to be thrown back and morphed since then...
i'm far from a conspriacy theorist but it seems that there is a hidden agenda here somewhere...and that is putting it in about as nice of terms that I can...i can obviously see that the same rules that certain members have espoused in this thread do not apply to all members of this website, and that is indeed disheartening...
one thing that i think all of us can agree on is that marathon cheaters do sucketh...i guess i should just leave it at that and leave the rest alone...
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megawill
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robp
Pyromaniac
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Joined: 26 Jul 2002
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Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 12:05 Post subject:
| megawill wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | maybe an update on "rules" is needed. I thought on topic was for everything, and that would include running also. I thought the difference and the reason for this section was to eliminate "fubby" and make sure that the thread stays on course. I think cheating in any form is a pretty serious discussion. If megawill wanted a discussion on why he thought that some people put more time and effort into marathon cheating versus politicians with hands in a cookie jar, seems to me that he could have created another thread.
If "on topic" is strictly for politics, it should be clearer. and now that it's further off topic......marathon cheaters sucketh!!! |
i never stated that a running topic shouldn't be of topic here...was just making an observation is all...but to me it is very telling how that has seemed to be thrown back and morphed since then...
i'm far from a conspriacy theorist but it seems that there is a hidden agenda here somewhere...and that is putting it in about as nice of terms that I can...i can obviously see that the same rules that certain members have espoused in this thread do not apply to all members of this website, and that is indeed disheartening...
one thing that i think all of us can agree on is that marathon cheaters do sucketh...i guess i should just leave it at that and leave the rest alone...
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megawill |
A hidden agenda? Two sets of rules? I don't think so.
Cheating sucks no matter what the venue.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 12:13 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: | I'm confused. I could understand this discussion if it were taking place in Mid Packers but I thought these (Riff Raff, On Topic and Reviews) were the off-topic forums where we talked about things non running related, or, in the case of the initial posting of this thread, running related as appropriate. Specifically I remember On Topic being started so there was a place to discuss more serious discussions or debates to separate them out from the lighter Riff Raff. Many forums that I've seen around many varying topics have a section like this, the theme of the forums is what brings everyone together, but we talk about other things with the commonality of whatever brought us to the forum, yet can bring different perspectives from our various experiences and views, and it results in a wide array of opinions. Kind of like real, non-internet life.
Or so I thought. Because we have many regular posters who don't run. |
That's what I thought as well.
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jrjo
Gone Fishin
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Location: Lake Wobegon, MN
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 12:24 Post subject:
I'll take one last stab at this and excuse myself of the topic. All I can ask is my posts be read, read and re-read to understand what I'm trying to get at. It's not about a set of rules. It's not about which topics go in which forums. It's not about what I think about a particular individual as a runner.
It's about motivation.
What is the motivation behind your posting?
And no, before you jump the gun, I have no vested interest in whatever motivation you might have. Nor do I care how often you post or which forum you post it in. All I ask is for a brief moment of reflection and consider the motivation you carry with you in the tone and tenor of your posts here.
I'll propose no 'standard' to which a person can post. Nor will I lobby for some 'formula' for where particular threads are suppose to dwell on this site. But if there's one request I can make, it would be that as a "community" there is a body of posts each of makes here and taken as a whole it creates an online persona. Especially in a place like rf.com where years and years accumulate of thoughts, experiences and grins shared with each other.
So where does your motivation come from? Does it have anything to do with running? Does it have to do with some senseless riff-raffing just for a few grins? Are you developing some realz friendships here? Do you really want to gain some perspective on people that might not share your point of view? Or are you here as a 'crusade', if I might refer back to my analogy? Is political flame-fanning your motivation? Are your trite questions only meant to set up and slam someone else's perspective?
I really don't care what you personally come here for.
What I'm trying and evidently not very eliquent at it, is trying to get some OT-only, apparent non-runners, to take a step back and realize, nothing more than realize, that the motivation they present with near exclusive political rambling lacking any running perspective whatsoever creates a persona that bucks the culture of the site as a whole.
If I'm going over heads, all I can ask is to read it again. Read for understanding and not to create a defense.
That's all I got.
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megawill
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 12:30 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: | I'll take one last stab at this and excuse myself of the topic. All I can ask is my posts be read, read and re-read to understand what I'm trying to get at. It's not about a set of rules. It's not about which topics go in which forums. It's not about what I think about a particular individual as a runner.
It's about motivation.
What is the motivation behind your posting?
And no, before you jump the gun, I have no vested interest in whatever motivation you might have. Nor do I care how often you post or which forum you post it in. All I ask is for a brief moment of reflection and consider the motivation you carry with you in the tone and tenor of your posts here.
I'll propose no 'standard' to which a person can post. Nor will I lobby for some 'formula' for where particular threads are suppose to dwell on this site. But if there's one request I can make, it would be that as a "community" there is a body of posts each of makes here and taken as a whole it creates an online persona. Especially in a place like rf.com where years and years accumulate of thoughts, experiences and grins shared with each other.
So where does your motivation come from? Does it have anything to do with running? Does it have to do with some senseless riff-raffing just for a few grins? Are you developing some realz friendships here? Do you really want to gain some perspective on people that might not share your point of view? Or are you here as a 'crusade', if I might refer back to my analogy? Is political flame-fanning your motivation? Are your trite questions only meant to set up and slam someone else's perspective?
I really don't care what you personally come here for.
What I'm trying and evidently not very eliquent at it, is trying to get some OT-only, apparent non-runners, to take a step back and realize, nothing more than realize, that the motivation they present with near exclusive political rambling lacking any running perspective whatsoever creates a persona that bucks the culture of the site as a whole.
If I'm going over heads, all I can ask is to read it again. Read for understanding and not to create a defense.
That's all I got. |
i understand completely what you are saying but wish you could see/understand how 'condescending, patroninzing, demeaning' those words are to those that you intend them for...
nuff said...
marathon cheaters still suck...
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runaroundsue
Member
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Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 12:41 Post subject:
| megawill wrote: | | jrjo wrote: | I'll take one last stab at this and excuse myself of the topic. All I can ask is my posts be read, read and re-read to understand what I'm trying to get at. It's not about a set of rules. It's not about which topics go in which forums. It's not about what I think about a particular individual as a runner.
It's about motivation.
What is the motivation behind your posting?
And no, before you jump the gun, I have no vested interest in whatever motivation you might have. Nor do I care how often you post or which forum you post it in. All I ask is for a brief moment of reflection and consider the motivation you carry with you in the tone and tenor of your posts here.
I'll propose no 'standard' to which a person can post. Nor will I lobby for some 'formula' for where particular threads are suppose to dwell on this site. But if there's one request I can make, it would be that as a "community" there is a body of posts each of makes here and taken as a whole it creates an online persona. Especially in a place like rf.com where years and years accumulate of thoughts, experiences and grins shared with each other.
So where does your motivation come from? Does it have anything to do with running? Does it have to do with some senseless riff-raffing just for a few grins? Are you developing some realz friendships here? Do you really want to gain some perspective on people that might not share your point of view? Or are you here as a 'crusade', if I might refer back to my analogy? Is political flame-fanning your motivation? Are your trite questions only meant to set up and slam someone else's perspective?
I really don't care what you personally come here for.
What I'm trying and evidently not very eliquent at it, is trying to get some OT-only, apparent non-runners, to take a step back and realize, nothing more than realize, that the motivation they present with near exclusive political rambling lacking any running perspective whatsoever creates a persona that bucks the culture of the site as a whole.
If I'm going over heads, all I can ask is to read it again. Read for understanding and not to create a defense.
That's all I got. |
i understand completely what you are saying but wish you could see/understand how 'condescending, patroninzing, demeaning' those words are to those that you intend them for...
nuff said...
marathon cheaters still suck... |
true, I don't think anyone needs to explain why they post here. But, as far this thread goes, it's really hard to tell who set the negatitive tone. To pull this one post of jrjo's out and call it 'demeaning', is definitely NOT looking at the whole picture.
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Noley
AZhat
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Posted: 12/04/05 - 14:31 Post subject:
My question: Is this guy being investigating for cheating? If so...I hope they find out if he did or not. He shouldn't get away with it.
Back to topic. Marathon cheaters suck ass. That's all there is to it. I'm just your average recreactional jogger trying to make an attempt at this distance again and every inch that I run is work. I don't want to hear that some Philly runner bib#7773 crossed the finish line without putting in the miles. It pisses me off to no end. If this guy does go to Boston for this, I'm even more angry. I don't have BQ visions, but friends who do. I know the time and work they put into it to get there. I know their disappointments when their chance was missed. So if a cheater gets BQ'd...it ticks me off.
I'm being blunt here, I know. Sorry. I cannot hold back from what I really feel on something that really rubs me the wrong way.
Marathon cheaters are teh suck. 
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