I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, but...
|
|
 
|
|
|
|
|
|
gretriever
Hipster Doofus
|
|
|
Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 19385
Location: A moving target in a firing range.
|
| Back to top
|
|
 Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:15 Post subject: I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, but...
...this year has me stumped (as of right now, anyway). Here's what we're looking at.
President - W has done OK in the foreign field, but as a gov'mint employee, I don't feel I'm moving ahead with pay, overtime, anything. Kerry, for all he says, only looks like a moderate from Massachusetts because the senior Senator is Teddy. Nader's running mate has been a candidate in the past on the Socialist Worker's ticket, I believe - the SWP regarded the Communist party as soft on capitalism.
Senate - Barack Obama is very liberal. It's said if he's elected, he would make Dick Durbin the conservative Senator from Illinois  . The Republicans have Alan Keyes. Recent comments and stunts have made this a sorry move by the State GOP.
House - Incumbent Mark Kirk has on two separate occasions this summer blamed the city and suburbs of Milwaukee for polluting beaches in Chicago and the North Shore (resulting from heavy rains and subsequent flooding) when he knew it was a physical impossibility for this to happen in the timeframe of events. He referred to this as deliberate actions by "Cheesehead imcompetnce." Even if the boy apologizes now, it's too late for my vote. If the Democrats have someone running in this district, it's the best-kept secret in America.
I know the answer to this, but I ask - Is this a legitimate reason not to vote? Given the expected answer, then the follow-up is: What's a guy to do in the voting booth? Please, no "hold your nose and vote" or "better the devil you know" answers. And I'm not asking which persons to vote for.
|
|
|
|
|
sonnylax
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 2942
Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:20 Post subject: Re: I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, bu
| gretriever wrote: | | but as a gov'mint employee, I don't feel I'm moving ahead with pay, overtime, anything. |
Without getting into the left or right politics, why do you think you are entitled to these things from your government?
|
|
|
|
|
andydp
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 8122
Location: Upstate NY near Albany
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:22 Post subject:
You have to sit back and make some sort of intelligent choice. The final call is yours.
I'm in the ABB camp right now. Because, if the present administration continues, John Ashcroft and the rest of the "Neo Con Cabal" will turn this country into a right leaning theocracy only one step removed from the Taliban.
I'd like to add this is coming from a lifelong moderate Republican. I have always voted for who I think will do the most good for me and my community.
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:22 Post subject:
You could do more in-depth research on the candidates in question regarding the issues that are most important to you and it may become clearer then.
|
|
|
|
|
MastrBrewr
Saccharomyces cerevisiae
|
|
|
Joined: 24 Sep 2003
Posts: 6974
Location: outside
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:24 Post subject: Re: I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, bu
| sonnylax wrote: | | gretriever wrote: | | but as a gov'mint employee, I don't feel I'm moving ahead with pay, overtime, anything. |
Without getting into the left or right politics, why do you think you are entitled to these things from your government? |
Isn't any worker who busts their butt entitled to at least a little reward?
|
|
|
|
|
andydp
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 8122
Location: Upstate NY near Albany
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:26 Post subject: Re: I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, bu
| sonnylax wrote: | | gretriever wrote: | | but as a gov'mint employee, I don't feel I'm moving ahead with pay, overtime, anything. |
Without getting into the left or right politics, why do you think you are entitled to these things from your government? |
Because he is a Govenrment Employee. Don't you think you deserve a raise from your private company for the hard work you do ? Entitlement implies a "right" to something - GR works for the government just like you work for your employer.
|
|
|
|
|
elkid
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Nov 2002
Posts: 8353
Location: hiding out in Philly
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:39 Post subject:
There is NO legitimate reason not to vote other than not being of age. NONE. What with absentee ballots and eBallots, you don't even have to go to the polls anymore.
If you do not vote, you spit in the face of every person who sacrificed, fought for, and/or died to give others the right to vote.
If you do not vote, you have NO RIGHT to complain about the decisions your political leaders make.
If you do not vote, you undermine the efforts of millions of immigrants who come to this country simply because here they CAN vote and have a say.
If you do not vote, you are unAmerican.
|
|
|
|
|
megawill
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1552
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:40 Post subject:
i had a history professor in college who made a half serioius but intriguing argument about placing a 'None Of The Above' on the ballot.
If you didn't like any of the choices, you'd simply vote 'None of the Above'. Nobody could be elected to office with less than 50% of the vote. Candidates that did not receive more votes than the NOTA option were automatically excluded from the next ballot. The party could choose to replace the candidate if they wish. I believe he supported a system where there would be a week of voting...a sort of national holiday if you will.
He argued that this would force the parties to nominate legitimate candidates who would talk about the issues, not who did what or didn't do what in vietnam, etc...
At the time (early 80's) this seemed unreasonable because of the logistics of holding multiple elections, etc...but in this electronic age, with some forethought of how this could work, that's probably no longer an issue...
---
megawill
|
|
|
|
|
gretriever
Hipster Doofus
|
|
|
Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 19385
Location: A moving target in a firing range.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:50 Post subject: Re: I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, bu
| andydp wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | gretriever wrote: | | but as a gov'mint employee, I don't feel I'm moving ahead with pay, overtime, anything. |
Without getting into the left or right politics, why do you think you are entitled to these things from your government? |
Because he is a Govenrment Employee. Don't you think you deserve a raise from your private company for the hard work you do ? Entitlement implies a "right" to something - GR works for the government just like you work for your employer. |
Andy is right in the statement that I work for the government as any person works for someone in the private sector.
I never stated I had a right to certain things. To look at it your way, Sonny, no private employee has the right to certain things either. I don't think this is the intent of the capitalist system, Ronald Reagan's "trickle-down" economics, or any other employer-employee/labor-management concept. Federal workers have had their pay increases restricted by Presidential mandates (Democratic as well as Republican) that we are in financial crises (i.e., the government shutdown during the Clinton Administration), or in a state of national emergency (as W has stated with the war on terrorism). Our classification (what we do here at Social Security) is we are essential workers - which, compared to the military, law enforcement, etc., I find hard to accept. Yet we get short-ended on pay increases, and if there's a government shutdown, we have to stay and work while others don't. As everyone gets paid eventually, this means they get paid time off with no leave charged to them.
I'm saying (or what I'm trying to say - without as many words) is first and foremost I have to put food on the table, pay for the house, and pay our son's college education (entering races is a close fourth!  ). A Federal employee can not strike. He (or she) can only quit or fight the madness. I've been in the game for 25 years this month. It's the fourth quarter. And I'm not planning on going to the bench.
|
|
|
|
|
sonnylax
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 2942
Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:55 Post subject: Re: I know it's our right and duty to vote come November, bu
| gretriever wrote: | | andydp wrote: | | sonnylax wrote: | | gretriever wrote: | | but as a gov'mint employee, I don't feel I'm moving ahead with pay, overtime, anything. |
Without getting into the left or right politics, why do you think you are entitled to these things from your government? |
Because he is a Govenrment Employee. Don't you think you deserve a raise from your private company for the hard work you do ? Entitlement implies a "right" to something - GR works for the government just like you work for your employer. |
Andy is right in the statement that I work for the government as any person works for someone in the private sector.
I never stated I had a right to certain things. To look at it your way, Sonny, no private employee has the right to certain things either. I don't think this is the intent of the capitalist system, Ronald Reagan's "trickle-down" economics, or any other employer-employee/labor-management concept. Federal workers have had their pay increases restricted by Presidential mandates (Democratic as well as Republican) that we are in financial crises (i.e., the government shutdown during the Clinton Administration), or in a state of national emergency (as W has stated with the war on terrorism). Our classification (what we do here at Social Security) is we are essential workers - which, compared to the military, law enforcement, etc., I find hard to accept. Yet we get short-ended on pay increases, and if there's a government shutdown, we have to stay and work while others don't. As everyone gets paid eventually, this means they get paid time off with no leave charged to them.
I'm saying (or what I'm trying to say - without as many words) is first and foremost I have to put food on the table, pay for the house, and pay our son's college education (entering races is a close fourth! ). A Federal employee can not strike. He (or she) can only quit or fight the madness. I've been in the game for 25 years this month. It's the fourth quarter. And I'm not planning on going to the bench. |
I've enjoyed a series of 2% salary raises the last few years at my (private) employer. Which hardly keeps up with inflation. Looking at my overall finances, I know I'm not getting ahead (and I'm not even married with kids). I'm treading water. My options are to stay with said current employer or find alternate employment.
Your options are the same. I originally thought you were stating that you entitled to overtime just because you were a govt. employee. Sorry for my misunderstanding.
|
|
|
|
|
gretriever
Hipster Doofus
|
|
|
Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 19385
Location: A moving target in a firing range.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 09:58 Post subject:
No harm, no foul. 
|
|
|
|
|
genie
Master of Prissface
|
|
|
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 16194
Location: Finding serenity one day at a time
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 10:00 Post subject:
| elkid wrote: | There is NO legitimate reason not to vote other than not being of age. NONE. What with absentee ballots and eBallots, you don't even have to go to the polls anymore.
If you do not vote, you spit in the face of every person who sacrificed, fought for, and/or died to give others the right to vote.
If you do not vote, you have NO RIGHT to complain about the decisions your political leaders make.
If you do not vote, you undermine the efforts of millions of immigrants who come to this country simply because here they CAN vote and have a say.
If you do not vote, you are unAmerican. |
So you're basically telling those of us who are undecided because we don't agree enough with either side's platform to pick the lesser of what we consider two evils, knowing that we'd be compromsing our own values to do so? I respectfully disagree. I don't like the idea of being guilted into or browbeaten into voting for someone I really don't want in office because of the reasons you stated above. And you're not the only one who has said this type of thing, I've heard it at CR for weeks, so this isn't a personal attack on you, I'm just tired of hearing people tell me what I HAVE to do when I don't WANT to do either for my own PERSONAL reasons. That's the beauty of living in a free country, is it not?
If I know you correctly, your mind is probably made up, in which case, yes, YOU should vote because you've likely found someone whose views and policies you can truly support and agree with (I'm just guessing here, feel free to correct me if I am wrong, please). I, on the other hand, haven't, so why should I vote for either person knowing I'm sacrificing something to get something else? Then I AM responsible if that person wins and makes everyone's life suck as a result of it.
I'm fully willing to give up my right to complain about our lousy government if I didn't contribute to putting it there. There is no "moderate" candidate that has a snowball's chance in hell of winning that would fulfill all of my requirements. I think John Kerry sucks and I wouldn't vote for him no matter what, but I disagree with enough of what Bush has already done and represents (spending out of control, abortion rights, gay marriage, etc) that I can't in good conscience vote for him for what I do support knowing he and I are diametrically opposed on other issues, some of which could affect me personally.
That being said, you're certainly entitled to your OPINION about voting but I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone else that they're unAmerican if they don't choose to compromise their own values and settle for less than what they want in government. Isn't that the whole supposed premise of our country? Government FOR the people, BY the people?
|
|
|
|
|
cherylpf
crazy cat lady
|
|
|
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 17305
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 10:05 Post subject:
| megawill wrote: | i had a history professor in college who made a half serioius but intriguing argument about placing a 'None Of The Above' on the ballot.
If you didn't like any of the choices, you'd simply vote 'None of the Above'. Nobody could be elected to office with less than 50% of the vote. Candidates that did not receive more votes than the NOTA option were automatically excluded from the next ballot. The party could choose to replace the candidate if they wish. I believe he supported a system where there would be a week of voting...a sort of national holiday if you will.
He argued that this would force the parties to nominate legitimate candidates who would talk about the issues, not who did what or didn't do what in vietnam, etc...
At the time (early 80's) this seemed unreasonable because of the logistics of holding multiple elections, etc...but in this electronic age, with some forethought of how this could work, that's probably no longer an issue...
---
megawill |
I like this. It would make the parties work hard at providing a candidate the people could stand behind.
Also with the weeklong holiday of voting, Texas has "early voting" where you can go to any number of locations (not just your precinct) and they can pull your ballot and you can vote. I think they do this over 2 weeks ending the weekend before the election or so. VERY convenient for everyone to get to the polls.
|
|
|
|
|
copteacher
Adjunct
|
|
|
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 20588
Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 10:05 Post subject:
mega, you professors point is good, but if the parties get involved in nominating people, it will reek of party politics.
|
|
|
|
|
MechEngDropout
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 10474
Location: Off the grid
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 09/02/04 - 10:06 Post subject:
| elkid wrote: | | If you do not vote, you are unAmerican. |
I think it's unAmerican to add randomness to the election. I think it's unAmerican to dilute the value of the votes of the people who have opinions.
Hey, maybe I'm just unAmerican though.
|
|
|
|
| |
All times are GMT - 4 Hours
|
| Page 1 of 7 |
Related topics: | |
|
|
