How do illegals pay taxes?
|
|
 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Running Brewer
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 3872
Location: Santa Poco
|
| Back to top
|
|
 Posted: 05/03/06 - 23:14 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
yep, Canada is so much further, than ......um....Wisconsin. My ancestors were documented. |
Congratulations, but that wasn't the point. The point is they thought that the US was the place to be. Isn't that what you asked?
As for Canada, it is at least 4 hours from where I live, plus if they want to come back, they can't legally cross through the US, therefore they would have to make two illegal crossings, or save enough money to fly home, but that would require a couple weeks pay check.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/04/06 - 18:27 Post subject:
| Running Brewer wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: |
yep, Canada is so much further, than ......um....Wisconsin. My ancestors were documented. |
Congratulations, but that wasn't the point. The point is they thought that the US was the place to be. Isn't that what you asked?
As for Canada, it is at least 4 hours from where I live, plus if they want to come back, they can't legally cross through the US, therefore they would have to make two illegal crossings, or save enough money to fly home, but that would require a couple weeks pay check. |
I guess I'm missing the point. You're the one that said Canada is too far north, I'm the one that said it isn't distance....but the crossing the Canadian border is more difficult. It appears now that you agree.
The only time I ever had great difficulty with crossing a border was INTO Mexico. I've done in many times by myself, on foot, by car, and plane. This one time it was by bus and I was stopped for 2 hours. Interesting that my travelling companions were of Mexican birth. Two days later I would cross with same persons, same bus driver into the US....10 minutes.
Seems Mexico cares more about who is coming in than we do.
|
|
|
|
|
Running Brewer
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 3872
Location: Santa Poco
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 09:07 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: | | Running Brewer wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: |
yep, Canada is so much further, than ......um....Wisconsin. My ancestors were documented. |
Congratulations, but that wasn't the point. The point is they thought that the US was the place to be. Isn't that what you asked?
As for Canada, it is at least 4 hours from where I live, plus if they want to come back, they can't legally cross through the US, therefore they would have to make two illegal crossings, or save enough money to fly home, but that would require a couple weeks pay check. |
I guess I'm missing the point. You're the one that said Canada is too far north, I'm the one that said it isn't distance....but the crossing the Canadian border is more difficult. It appears now that you agree.
The only time I ever had great difficulty with crossing a border was INTO Mexico. I've done in many times by myself, on foot, by car, and plane. This one time it was by bus and I was stopped for 2 hours. Interesting that my travelling companions were of Mexican birth. Two days later I would cross with same persons, same bus driver into the US....10 minutes.
Seems Mexico cares more about who is coming in than we do. |
No, what I was saying is that if they wanted to enter Canada they can with just a Passport, they are required to have a visa to enter, but if they travel through the US to get there, the would have to do the same to return, thus making two illegal crossings into the US.
And FYI, I have always had more trouble with the authorities, (i.e. military check points, border crossings, etc) when I am travelling with Mexicans than if I am by myself or with other Americans, but I would never say that the mexicans care more about who enter than the US.
|
|
|
|
|
phillycat
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1953
Location: Da hood
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 09:07 Post subject:
I think the point that RB was trying to make is that Mexicans aren't going to try to go into Canada because it is so far away from their homes and they usually work X number of months then return home. If they were to go and try to work in Canada, not only would they have to cross two boarders, but the time/distance would inhibit them from going back home to Mexico.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 10:24 Post subject:
| Running Brewer wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | | Running Brewer wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: |
yep, Canada is so much further, than ......um....Wisconsin. My ancestors were documented. |
Congratulations, but that wasn't the point. The point is they thought that the US was the place to be. Isn't that what you asked?
As for Canada, it is at least 4 hours from where I live, plus if they want to come back, they can't legally cross through the US, therefore they would have to make two illegal crossings, or save enough money to fly home, but that would require a couple weeks pay check. |
I guess I'm missing the point. You're the one that said Canada is too far north, I'm the one that said it isn't distance....but the crossing the Canadian border is more difficult. It appears now that you agree.
The only time I ever had great difficulty with crossing a border was INTO Mexico. I've done in many times by myself, on foot, by car, and plane. This one time it was by bus and I was stopped for 2 hours. Interesting that my travelling companions were of Mexican birth. Two days later I would cross with same persons, same bus driver into the US....10 minutes.
Seems Mexico cares more about who is coming in than we do. |
No, what I was saying is that if they wanted to enter Canada they can with just a Passport, they are required to have a visa to enter, but if they travel through the US to get there, the would have to do the same to return, thus making two illegal crossings into the US.
And FYI, I have always had more trouble with the authorities, (i.e. military check points, border crossings, etc) when I am travelling with Mexicans than if I am by myself or with other Americans, but I would never say that the mexicans care more about who enter than the US. |
so, they (MX)are just very slow at processing information at the border? To be honest, I thought the US was way too quick considering all the visa and origin of births...on board that bus (Puerto Rico, Australia, Bolivia, Mexican, Australia, and England), 10 minutes was probably WAY too efficient. So, I guess it's not that MX cares more......the US doesn't care enough.
My fear of documentation has less to do with possible criminals, etc (I think most other countries have less problems that us). My fear is coming in to the US without physicals, etc and bringing back diseases that we thought we were immune to or have never seen and without documentation how difficult it would be for the CDC to contain. We are having an outbreak of mumps in WI right now, what if it were smallpox?
|
|
|
|
|
Running Brewer
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 3872
Location: Santa Poco
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 10:55 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
My fear of documentation has less to do with possible criminals, etc (I think most other countries have less problems that us). My fear is coming in to the US without physicals, etc and bringing back diseases that we thought we were immune to or have never seen and without documentation how difficult it would be for the CDC to contain. We are having an outbreak of mumps in WI right now, what if it were smallpox? |
While I understand your fear, how is that different than if an American goes to those countries and catches a bug then brings it back? I know a Mexican with TB, I didn't know he had it at the the I saw him, but I could easily have contracted that.
|
|
|
|
|
shelee
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 2409
Location: IN
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 13:20 Post subject:
As I read this I think there are good points worth considering from both sides of the argument. The topic is huge, so I’m only going to point out a few facts that are very important to the development of the current situation:
In 1942 the US implemented the Bracero program that, for the next twenty-two years, allowed recruitment and importation of temporary Mexicans workers. 4.6 million temporary workers came to the US.
Ask yourself, do you really think companies in the US stopped employing Mexicans when the program ended in 1964? Now, think if you had a family in Mexico…wouldn’t you want to have the freedom to cross the border? Ultimately, the border was quite fluid, the government kind of did a “don’t ask don’t tell” and companies were happy.
Keeping this in mind, it is now the 1980’s, IRCA (Immigration Reform and Control Act) is a reality. We’re going to beef up the border, punish companies hiring illegals, and, legalize documented workers and give undocumented workers in the states an alternative plan to legalization.
Implications: IRCA’s unintended goal to deter immigration actually forces temporary workers into part of a permanent population. What isn’t foreseen is the cultural, political, and economic changes the passage of time and legislation will bring. This means more economic strain is being placed on Mexico because of unemployment….and what does it mean for families…essentially you cannot go home, it is illegal to go home, if you want to be granted citizenship….and going home means poverty (not that the statistical facts support that you’re any better off here if you’re an illegal…over 60 percent are living in poverty).
This even gets better for Mexico…enter NAFTA. Bush, Clinton, Salinas…they all tell us how jobs are going to be created…making everyone richer. Win, win, right?
Wait a second, but what about the people who don’t live along the Northern border of Mexico (think Chiapas and isn’t this the image you get?)…these communities languished, became marginalized and impoverished. Kind of like Walmart’s affect on the mom and pop stores … good analogy?
Here’s something to consider, is it just coincidence rioting and violence ensued?
Ok, so you have a poor country now poorer, Mexicans who need to stay in the US….
And what are the implications for the US???
Think of it…Latino national political clout, rising poverty, dependence on cheap labor….
Whichever side you may lean on, and there seems to be good arguments on both sides of the fence, historically, our “solutions” have caused more headache than heartship.
Personally, my town is now 35 percent Latino. I hope communities focus on how to accommodate this population because the politics will always be there….and so will the Latinos. This is a migration, and I don’t think a migration can be stopped.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 14:07 Post subject:
| Running Brewer wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: |
My fear of documentation has less to do with possible criminals, etc (I think most other countries have less problems that us). My fear is coming in to the US without physicals, etc and bringing back diseases that we thought we were immune to or have never seen and without documentation how difficult it would be for the CDC to contain. We are having an outbreak of mumps in WI right now, what if it were smallpox? |
While I understand your fear, how is that different than if an American goes to those countries and catches a bug then brings it back? I know a Mexican with TB, I didn't know he had it at the the I saw him, but I could easily have contracted that. |
Last time I checked when you get a passport to go to an "exotic" island etc. we have to get exotic shots (yellow fever, spotted fever, etc.) before we board a plane into. But. yes, you are right, it could happened, but again an American citizen is documented, easier to locate, and quarantine.
To understand where I'm coming from, if your TB friend came into contact with my DH, and my DH went to work and had a patient that was in dire health......well, I think it becomes more of a problem for that person. The big problem would be if DH sees and undocumented patient with a phoney address that is now exposed to TB and cannot be located and we can just guess how many people he will come into contact before he shows any symptoms.
|
|
|
|
|
Running Brewer
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 3872
Location: Santa Poco
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 14:26 Post subject:
| shelee wrote: | As I read this I think there are good points worth considering from both sides of the argument. The topic is huge, so I’m only going to point out a few facts that are very important to the development of the current situation:
In 1942 the US implemented the Bracero program that, for the next twenty-two years, allowed recruitment and importation of temporary Mexicans workers. 4.6 million temporary workers came to the US.
Ask yourself, do you really think companies in the US stopped employing Mexicans when the program ended in 1964? Now, think if you had a family in Mexico…wouldn’t you want to have the freedom to cross the border? Ultimately, the border was quite fluid, the government kind of did a “don’t ask don’t tell” and companies were happy.
Keeping this in mind, it is now the 1980’s, IRCA (Immigration Reform and Control Act) is a reality. We’re going to beef up the border, punish companies hiring illegals, and, legalize documented workers and give undocumented workers in the states an alternative plan to legalization.
Implications: IRCA’s unintended goal to deter immigration actually forces temporary workers into part of a permanent population. What isn’t foreseen is the cultural, political, and economic changes the passage of time and legislation will bring. This means more economic strain is being placed on Mexico because of unemployment….and what does it mean for families…essentially you cannot go home, it is illegal to go home, if you want to be granted citizenship….and going home means poverty (not that the statistical facts support that you’re any better off here if you’re an illegal…over 60 percent are living in poverty).
This even gets better for Mexico…enter NAFTA. Bush, Clinton, Salinas…they all tell us how jobs are going to be created…making everyone richer. Win, win, right?
Wait a second, but what about the people who don’t live along the Northern border of Mexico (think Chiapas and isn’t this the image you get?)…these communities languished, became marginalized and impoverished. Kind of like Walmart’s affect on the mom and pop stores … good analogy?
Here’s something to consider, is it just coincidence rioting and violence ensued?
Ok, so you have a poor country now poorer, Mexicans who need to stay in the US….
And what are the implications for the US???
Think of it…Latino national political clout, rising poverty, dependence on cheap labor….
Whichever side you may lean on, and there seems to be good arguments on both sides of the fence, historically, our “solutions” have caused more headache than heartship.
Personally, my town is now 35 percent Latino. I hope communities focus on how to accommodate this population because the politics will always be there….and so will the Latinos. This is a migration, and I don’t think a migration can be stopped. |
you bring up some very good points.
|
|
|
|
|
robp
Pyromaniac
|
|
|
Joined: 26 Jul 2002
Posts: 16242
Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/05/06 - 14:42 Post subject:
Per one of the greatest men of all time IMO:
In 1907, during one of the great immigration waves, President Teddy Roosevelt said that the immigrant who comes here "in good faith ... shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin." However, he added, "We have room but for one flag, the American flag."
To me, "in good faith" means the following:
1. legally
2. with no intent to bring this country or her residents any harm
3. with intent to become a member of this country even if it's dual citizenship
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/06/06 - 08:52 Post subject:
Well, using your definition of "good faith," what about all the thousands and thousands of workers who come here to work for an employer for a defined period of time and then go home? Our gov clearly wants them. That's why it created the E, L, O, B-1 and H1-B visas. So it's not like everyone who comes here to work is in bad faith if they're not staying.
|
|
|
|
|
sonnylax
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 2942
Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/06/06 - 12:06 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | Well, using your definition of "good faith," what about all the thousands and thousands of workers who come here to work for an employer for a defined period of time and then go home? Our gov clearly wants them. That's why it created the E, L, O, B-1 and H1-B visas. So it's not like everyone who comes here to work is in bad faith if they're not staying. |
How do you know they are leaving and going home? I'm sure they all are legal, law-abiding folks that leave when they are suppose to. Heaven forbid we deport someone whose vise has expired.
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/06/06 - 13:45 Post subject:
| sonnylax wrote: | | Gogirlgo wrote: | | Well, using your definition of "good faith," what about all the thousands and thousands of workers who come here to work for an employer for a defined period of time and then go home? Our gov clearly wants them. That's why it created the E, L, O, B-1 and H1-B visas. So it's not like everyone who comes here to work is in bad faith if they're not staying. |
How do you know they are leaving and going home? I'm sure they all are legal, law-abiding folks that leave when they are suppose to. Heaven forbid we deport someone whose vise has expired. |
(Hand smacks forehead)
The irony of this is that I just five minutes ago finishing printing out my take-home final in Business Immigration.
They're traceable b/c they have visas. If they didn't go home, the government wouldn't allow things like treaty investing/trading for overseas companies. Even if they don't go home (a number of them don't), they come in and stay in here legally. You're allowed, once you're here and in proper status, to apply for legal permanent status. People do it all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
GaRebelRunner
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 1097
Location: Tucker, GA
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/06/06 - 22:16 Post subject:
I think the problem with illegal immigration from Mexico whether talking about taxes, wages or housing is we have grown so dependent upon it as a nation. This morning, for example, I had a brand new roof installed on my townhouse at $500 to a little over $1,000 less expensive than using an American contractor. I used a reputable local Mexican contractor who furnished his own workers. I did not ask for any information as to their status. Their work is very good to excellent. I'll find out Sunday when heavy rains are forecast if I have any leak worries.
And as I'm renovating my townhouse with other projects from carpeting to bathroom installations I've grown accustomed to looking toward Hispanic workers for any help I need. I've even resorted to learning Spanish because more of my neighbors, and virtually all the stores, including Publix and Kroger, are Spanish speaking. I do think it is deplorable that I have to learn Spanish rather than them learning English, but if I want to understand what is going on around me, that's just the way it is right now.
The reality of the situation is that we have let the door open for so long and so wide that there is no effective way to suddenly close it and simply tell the "guests" to go home. We lost that option about 20 years ago when we did nothing to stop them from entering the U.S. illegally. The laws need to be revised taking into account the current illegal population we have to work with. Deporting 12 million people is not viable.
Buenos noches!
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/08/06 - 10:07 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | I think the problem with illegal immigration from Mexico whether talking about taxes, wages or housing is we have grown so dependent upon it as a nation. This morning, for example, I had a brand new roof installed on my townhouse at $500 to a little over $1,000 less expensive than using an American contractor. I used a reputable local Mexican contractor who furnished his own workers. I did not ask for any information as to their status. Their work is very good to excellent. I'll find out Sunday when heavy rains are forecast if I have any leak worries.
And as I'm renovating my townhouse with other projects from carpeting to bathroom installations I've grown accustomed to looking toward Hispanic workers for any help I need. I've even resorted to learning Spanish because more of my neighbors, and virtually all the stores, including Publix and Kroger, are Spanish speaking. I do think it is deplorable that I have to learn Spanish rather than them learning English, but if I want to understand what is going on around me, that's just the way it is right now.
The reality of the situation is that we have let the door open for so long and so wide that there is no effective way to suddenly close it and simply tell the "guests" to go home. We lost that option about 20 years ago when we did nothing to stop them from entering the U.S. illegally. The laws need to be revised taking into account the current illegal population we have to work with. Deporting 12 million people is not viable.
Buenos noches! |
I agree with your last paragraph. The "fault" was on our side and we should be very thankful that we haven't really had a problem with having our blinders on.
I'm troubled by your first paragraph, I would not have people working for me without papers (regardless if they are citizens or not), mostly for my own protection, wouldn't want to lose everything due to an accident on my property to save a few dollars. I'm not sure how the law works with contractors, but I'd be afraid that I might found negligent if I at least didn't ask if everyone was bonded. Not sure if an illegal can sue, but if they can get services such as education, health care, I don't see why not?
Maybe a good question for Ms. Go 
|
|
|
|
| |
All times are GMT - 4 Hours
|
|
|
