How Kerry/Edwards will turn US sovereignty over to the UN

The Movie Geek

Just wanted to start a new thread so we can get this whole issue cleared up. Razz

So, if anyone knows....

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By passing the world test, silly. Wink

The Movie Geek

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Y'know, Pug, I was just about to comment on this on the other thread.

Seems like too many folks have been drinkin' the Bush-Cheney Kool-Aid out there.

NO PRESIDENT, I don't care how liberal you think he/she is, is going to give control of US policy to any organization.

But, Kerry was dead right when he spoke about our actions needing to be able to pass a global test, meaning not a veto but a global credibility test.

Legitimacy and credibility are two of the hardest to define yet most important aspects of governmental leadership.

When we went into Afghanistan the whole world was behind us. It was a highly credible move. Germany and France both have large contingents of troops there. It was indeed an obvious move in the "War on Terror" (dumb name for many reasons, but easily recognizable).

Iraq was not the same case at all. The lead up to the war, bullying and browbeating our allies, was so ham-fisted and poorly managed by TeamBush that on the basis of that performance alone they should be thrown out of office, even if the Iraq War hadn't started.

We burned lots of bridges and frayed many alliances that were built up carefully over decades. It's pretty clear to most observers that Bush could have certainly manuevered the Security Council to vote his way had he given it time. And with intensive inspections going on in Iraq and US/UK troops on the border it was clear that we had time. Saddam was caged.

But since before coming to power the Bush foreign policy team of neoconservatives had one agenda, the overthrow of Saddam Hussein. It was discussed at the first Bush staff meeting, months before September 11th even happened. They took the opening they saw via 9-11 and ramrodded through that radical policy to its full conclusion.

In doing so they made a huge gambit, namely, that it would work out as they said and hoped it would. It didn't, and any apologist seeking to make 'things change on the ground' or 'we were working on bad info' arguments need only go back to the statements prior to the invasion to see what the administration was saying.

While publicly touting a role for inspectors and many opportunities to avoid war, his mind was already made up. In a meeting when asked about the effectiveness of sanctions on Iraq and the role of diplomacy Bush was quoted as saying "F@*k Sadam, we're taking him out."

The passing of a 'Global Test' comes not prior to action, rather after the fact. It comes from our deeds and actions being deemed credible by the rest of the international community without whose assistance we will never be able to confront the major problems facing our world, only one of which is global terror.

On this TeamBush has failed miserably. I can't even think of a country who is rushing to aid what they see as Bush's (not the US's) colosssal miscalculation and policy blunder.

Kerry begins to change that reality from day one as president simply because he's not Bush.

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First debate where it came up

LEHRER: New question. Two minutes, Senator Kerry.

What is your position on the whole concept of preemptive war? KERRY: The president always has the right, and always has had the right, for preemptive strike. That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

Kerry: No president, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to preempt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people understand fully why you're doing what you're doing and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons.

2nd debate

BUSH: You remember the last debate?

My opponent said that America must pass a global test before we used force to protect ourselves. That's the kind of mindset that says sanctions were working. That's the kind of mindset that said, "Let's keep it at the United Nations and hope things go well."

Saddam Hussein was a threat because he could have given weapons of mass destruction to terrorist enemies. Sanctions were not working. The United Nations was not effective at removing Saddam Hussein.

GIBSON: Senator?

KERRY: The goal of the sanctions was not to remove Saddam Hussein, it was to remove the weapons of mass destruction. And, Mr. President, just yesterday the Duelfer report told you and the whole world they worked. He didn't have weapons of mass destruction, Mr. President. That was the objective.

And if we'd used smart diplomacy, we could have saved $200 billion and an invasion of Iraq. And right now, Osama bin Laden might be in jail or dead. That's the war against terror.

3rd debate
Bush:In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test. In order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country.

I'll work with allies. I'll work with friends. We'll continue to build strong coalitions. But I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries.

We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists.

SCHIEFFER: Senator?

KERRY: I have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation. In fact, I've said the opposite: I will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation. No nation will ever have a veto over us.

But I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world.

But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America.

Link to debate transcripts http://www.debates.org/pages/debtrans.html

The Movie Geek

You know, Kerry's statements look stronger on paper than it did when he spoke them in the debate. And Bush comes off looking a little silly there. Granted, we can probably piece together some quotes making Kerry look silly by misrepresenting what Bush said, but Kerry's words here have some weight to them.

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The Movie Geek

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How Kerry/Edwards will turn US sovereignty over to the UN

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