HR 4437/Sensenbrenner bill (immigration)
|
|
 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
 Posted: 03/26/06 - 23:20 Post subject: HR 4437/Sensenbrenner bill (immigration)
So, what do you guys think about the upcoming vote this week on what to do with all the undocumented aliens we have in this country?
On the one hand, they are the infrastructure for construction, restaurants, etc. On the other hand, they're driving out other workers, like carpenters, b/c they will work so much more cheaply. On the other hand (I have a lot of hands), maybe they should just go home and try to apply legally like millions of others do. On the other hand, under this current bill, they'll be labeled felons (as will their employers) and not allowed to return, even if they have family here.
What's the answer?
|
|
|
|
|
copteacher
Adjunct
|
|
|
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 20588
Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 09:49 Post subject:
I think the market would play itself out if people are removed from the industries. Salaries would be made higher as the supply of workers declines.
The illegals are exactly that, illegal. Round them up and send them back. Strict enforcement of both the borders, current laws and people who employ the illegals. I think going after the employers too is also very important. If there are no jobs for people, then that in itself may deter illegal immigration.
Maybe also up the "legal" number of people a year, I think it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1+million a year.
I am not sure of a guest worker program because that allows for a lot of abuse and administration oversight. I do not think it would work really.
|
|
|
|
|
gretriever
Hipster Doofus
|
|
|
Joined: 16 Jul 2003
Posts: 19385
Location: A moving target in a firing range.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 10:21 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: |
The illegals are exactly that, illegal. Round them up and send them back. Strict enforcement of both the borders, current laws and people who employ the illegals. I think going after the employers too is also very important. If there are no jobs for people, then that in itself may deter illegal immigration.
|
This would also need to call for co-ordination between government agencies. Example - Local Social Security offices go out to business places periodically to check on earnings records discrepancies. This leads to access company records. A business could have 75 %, say, of its workers as undocumented/illegal aliens. Often with SS numbers obtained fraudulently. Yet Social Security cannot refer this info to INS or other appropriate agencies.
This was from my experiences working at a local office less than six months before 9/11. They may have since adjusted the laws to enable this reporting. But I doubt it.
|
|
|
|
|
cherylpf
crazy cat lady
|
|
|
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 17305
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 10:59 Post subject:
My answer: I don't know.
| copteacher wrote: | | I think the market would play itself out if people are removed from the industries. Salaries would be made higher as the supply of workers declines. |
Meaning the cost of services increases and harder time finding people to do the work. Immigrants make up a significant part of the economy I think.
| Quote: | | Maybe also up the "legal" number of people a year, I think it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1+million a year. |
What does up the legal number of people per year mean? Isn't part of the problem here that its hard to do it legally? I know its especially harder to become a citizen since 9/11. You can ask my masters degreed English speaking employed tax and SSI paying non voting Brazillian friend, whose entire family lives legally in the US now and who may have to return to Brazil for the first time in 13 year this summer when her visa expires due to the current immigration laws situation. The whole INS is messed up.
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 11:28 Post subject:
Just to verify, there is no more INS. It was subsumed by the Dept of Homeland Security after 9/11. Now we have USCIS (US CItizenship and Immigration Services), and w/i that office, ICE (Customs Enforcement) and CBP (Customs and Border Protection).
|
|
|
|
|
cherylpf
crazy cat lady
|
|
|
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 17305
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 11:35 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | Just to verify, there is no more INS. It was subsumed by the Dept of Homeland Security after 9/11. Now we have USCIS (US CItizenship and Immigration Services), and w/i that office, ICE (Customs Enforcement) and CBP (Customs and Border Protection). |
Ahhh. Thanks. Yeah, well they are messed up.
|
|
|
|
|
copteacher
Adjunct
|
|
|
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 20588
Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 11:37 Post subject:
Shurl, the million legal are the people from other countries whom legally request and are granted entry. Granted there is a huge backlog with Immigration right now. I know personally, our two au pairs have requested green cards and it takes like 2-5 years just to get an answer. Short of someone being a doctor or highly skilled professional, the likelyhood of people coming legally is a long time. The whole system needs to be looked and evaluated. There is just not an enforcement problem but administrative too.
One bit of experience I have personally dealt with INS/ICE when I was with the PD, they basically told us, short of a felony we were to let the people go, they were not interested. That is a big problem.
|
|
|
|
|
Sahara
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 3345
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 13:43 Post subject:
So is it simply an economic issue? Rather, is it only a complex economic issue?!
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 13:46 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: | Shurl, the million legal are the people from other countries whom legally request and are granted entry. Granted there is a huge backlog with Immigration right now. I know personally, our two au pairs have requested green cards and it takes like 2-5 years just to get an answer. Short of someone being a doctor or highly skilled professional, the likelyhood of people coming legally is a long time. The whole system needs to be looked and evaluated. There is just not an enforcement problem but administrative too.
One bit of experience I have personally dealt with INS/ICE when I was with the PD, they basically told us, short of a felony we were to let the people go, they were not interested. That is a big problem. |
There are two different types of IMMs. One is for employment, one is everyone else. Not every country gets the same number of visas. God help you if you're from the Philippines, our gov is still (I sh*t you not) processing apps from 1982. An entire generation of people has grown up since 1982.
Also, I'm almost glad they told you that, Joe. There's been a real push to have local enforcement help out, but the training to make people able to do so has been minimal if it even exists at all. Given the lack of training, I'd rather the people who are supposed to do it do it and leave the other, also vital, stuff for the local cops.
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 13:48 Post subject:
| Sahara wrote: | | So is it simply an economic issue? Rather, is it only a complex economic issue?! |
I don't think so. Economics is a factor, of course, but there are a lot of public-policy issues to consider, such as security, as well as a foundational premise of this country, as well as a desire to not have to concern ourselves with the same types of problems being faced by a good deal of Western Europe.
|
|
|
|
|
copteacher
Adjunct
|
|
|
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 20588
Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 13:50 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | copteacher wrote: | Shurl, the million legal are the people from other countries whom legally request and are granted entry. Granted there is a huge backlog with Immigration right now. I know personally, our two au pairs have requested green cards and it takes like 2-5 years just to get an answer. Short of someone being a doctor or highly skilled professional, the likelyhood of people coming legally is a long time. The whole system needs to be looked and evaluated. There is just not an enforcement problem but administrative too.
One bit of experience I have personally dealt with INS/ICE when I was with the PD, they basically told us, short of a felony we were to let the people go, they were not interested. That is a big problem. |
Also, I'm almost glad they told you that, Joe. There's been a real push to have local enforcement help out, but the training to make people able to do so has been minimal if it even exists at all. Given the lack of training, I'd rather the people who are supposed to do it do it and leave the other, also vital, stuff for the local cops. |
the one problem G3 is that it is hard for us cops to let known law breakers go. It is just real tough knowing that the people are here illegally, and man if they hit someone in a car or something.
This is a real big problem. It is a FEDERAL problem and when we try to get the feds involved they dont. It is extremely frustrating.
|
|
|
|
|
Gogirlgo
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 14:15 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: |
the one problem G3 is that it is hard for us cops to let known law breakers go. It is just real tough knowing that the people are here illegally, and man if they hit someone in a car or something.
This is a real big problem. It is a FEDERAL problem and when we try to get the feds involved they dont. It is extremely frustrating. |
I bet it is. Another problem is that the border states like TX and AZ have to use state funds to do the fed's job. Paying local cops to do the fed job is the same thing in other states. It's just not the appropriate use of what those funds are for.
I know it's hard for cops to let criminals go. I don't want to go off topic but I see that a lot in 4th Am cases, where the search yielded a bunch of drugs and the cops are rightfully glad to see the drugs stay off the street, but the prosecution can't go on b/c of how the search was conducted. It's a tension in law enforcement, between long-term and short-term solutions.
|
|
|
|
|
airehead
Oompa Loofah
|
|
|
Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 18788
Location: Between here and eternity...
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 16:27 Post subject:
What bothers me is for the non-tax paying illegals who get social services that should be used on citizens. ie: medical care to name one.
/off topic. I don't know the answers. My parents did it legally over 40 years ago--and even back then it was a hassle.
|
|
|
|
|
sonnylax
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
Posts: 2942
Location: Living in a lollipop and unicorn world
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/27/06 - 17:10 Post subject:
It is a complex issue for sure. But I tend to adhere to the following train of thought -- A burgular who breaks into a house, shouldn't complain about the food in the fridge.
Boortz made some good points on this issue earlier today...
| Neal Boortz wrote: | SO ... LET ME SEE IF I'VE GOT THIS STRAIGHT. THE LAW MEANS NOTHING, RIGHT?
Did you see the demonstrations over the weekend? Specifically, did you see that demonstration in Los Angeles? Police estimate that as many as 500,000 "immigration advocates" marched in downtown LA. Denver - 50,000. Phoenix, 20,000. Milwaukee, 10,000. Charlotte, 5,000 to 7,000. Why were they marching? They were protesting legislation that has already passed the U.S. House of Representatives that would make illegal immigration a felony rather than a mere civil crime.
HOLD ON! Wait a minute! Do you mean to tell me that here we are, over four years past the 9/11 attacks, and illegally entering this country is still not a felony? There are consensual sex acts that can bring harsher punishment than entering and then staying in the United States illegally. I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that if you find an illegal alien in Alabama with a dildo, he'll be held in jail because of the sex toy, not because he's here illegally.
OK ... back to the demonstrations.
Check out one of these quotes. It's from some thug rapper named Jorge Ruiz: "We construct your schools. We cook your food. We are the motor of this nation, but people don't see us. Blacks and whites, they had their revolution. They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us."
There are two ways to emigrate to the United States: legally and illegally. The way that 11 million people have chosen to enter this country is to sneak across the border. They have chosen to break our laws and are criminals. So now they're protesting. So why isn't anything being done about it? There were probably thousands of illegals at these protests...why not go around and ask people for their green cards then? It would be like shooting fish in a barrel...a large concentration of illegal aliens, all waiting to be arrested and deported. Answer: They're not going to be deported. Not now, not ever.
As we said, the estimates of illegal aliens in this country runs from 11 to 12 million. Some think the number is higher. Both political parties are caught in the middle here. On the one hand you have the financial and political support of the businesses that benefit from the labor supplied by these illegals, plus the potential of a huge voter base should they ever become citizens. On the other hand you have the growing anger of an electorate that is increasing demanding that something be done about this invasion across the U.S.-Mexico border. The result? Nothing gets done, and thousands of illegals sneak, not so sneakily, across the border into this country every month.
Here's a political reality for you. You may not like it, but a little reality check might be good for you early on a Monday morning.. The 11 or 12 million illegals in this country aren't going anywhere. They're staying right here. You can change their continued presence here from a misdemeanor to a felony if you like .. but stay they will. If you think that the United Nations Human Rights Commission screams when we force-feed a Camp Gitmo prisoner who is trying to kill himself through starvation --- calling it torture; then you just stand back and listen to the howling cacophony that, as surely as night follows day and Bill Clinton follows flat-bellies, will erupt with category 5 force when we try to send these criminals back across the Mexican/American border. The UN and the Euro-weenies (who, by the way, face a much more troublesome immigration issue of their own ... Muslims) will start screaming about human rights violations such as they've never screamed before.
There is really only one course of action available to us. Defend our borders. Shut them down. Now. It's hard for even the United Nations to demonize a country that is simply defending its borders. Sure ... the invasion has already placed 12 million behind the lines, but here they are and here they'll stay. Our salvation is going to be in assimilating them into American society; a tough role indeed with the proliferation of Spanish language TV, radio and newspapers.
And what about immigration law? In a country based on the rule of law this should all be so very simple. They came here illegally. They remain here illegally. They work here illegally. Round them up, send them home. But remember this: There is no underlying concept of the rule of law working here. Certainly not with the illegals who have invaded our country, and, sadly, not with the people in this country who will promote their message. We are dealing with several generations of Americans who have not been taught that we are a government of law, rather that we are are government of people. More specifically, a government of the majority. I've been telling you for decades that teaching this historically-incorrect idea that the United States is a Democracy, a country of majority rule, was going to get us in a spot of trouble someday. Well, look outside. It's someday. Did you see those 500,000 Mexicans marching in Los Angeles yesterday? How many Americans did you see in that counter-demonstration calling for a simple enforcement of our immigration laws? None? Right! So, there's your rule of the mob vs. the rule of law working for you. Five hundred thousand Mexicans in Los Angeles want no enforcement of our immigration laws. Those opposed? Engrossed in March Madness. There's your democracy. |
|
|
|
|
|
GaRebelRunner
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 1097
Location: Tucker, GA
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 03/28/06 - 08:08 Post subject:
Effectively with the current Senate Bill being almost assured of passage, amnesty as well as open borders between the U.S. and Mexico are a foregone conclusion. Whether or not that's desireable is debatable, but reality is the Mexicans are here to stay as long as they wish, legally or otherwise. Now, if Americans were to decide to illegally cross the border into Mexico and work and buy houses with illegal documents I do wonder what the penalties would be. It's pretty much a one way street.
|
|
|
|
| |
All times are GMT - 4 Hours
|
| Page 1 of 2 |
Related topics: | |
|
|
