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msparks
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 Posted: 11/28/03 - 11:26 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | Not only did I have a draft card, when I went into the Marines, they were selecting draftees by birthday lottery. My number was in the 300's so I did not have to join but felt it my duty regardless of my personal feelings on the war.
What makes people leery of Greenwood's motives is his making his name writing/performing songs encouraging war efforts. Considering the fact he himself avoided/dodged (depending on your definition) it can be seen as somewhat hypocritical.
I don't have any opinions personally one way or the other on Greenwood's motives. |
I, too, had a lottery number. A quick check and I'd say that there were 365?  Yep, I remember...mine was in the 100's but I still didn't worry about it...it wasn't the reason that I enlisted.
Yeah, I'm the same regarding Greenwood's motives. No biggie. And I, too, understand the part about him being somewhat hypocritical...or viewed as such. I wonder how he feels about the troops in the Sandy Part of the World. There are plenty of them over there who are parents. They didn't have the option Greenwood had. Perhaps he should have joined the National Guard or the Reserves. During that time, those types of units weren't being deployed to Vietnam. He could have been seen as a patriotic chap. These days? Tons of guardsmen and reservists are in-country and lots of 'em have died.
And this may cause an uproar (I'm cringing) but I'm not a country music fan so Lee Greenwood doesn't matter to me, one way or the other.
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shelflifers
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 13:41 Post subject:
I spent 3 long months in Vietnam helping the Americans whoop some butt...Sure my weapon was a rattle, but I did some damage... 
as for Monkey Bush...never been a supporter...probably never will but I sure did appreciate what he did yesterday...
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msparks
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 14:28 Post subject:
| shelflifers wrote: | I spent 3 long months in Vietnam helping the Americans whoop some butt...Sure my weapon was a rattle, but I did some damage...
as for Monkey Bush...never been a supporter...probably never will but I sure did appreciate what he did yesterday... |
Your war effort is commendable and I imagine that it was appreciated!
I hope that the troops appreciated it and that it has a positive effect on morale. Latest report that I've read regarding in-country milpers suicides is 17...and those are the only ones being admitted and confirmed. There are numbers of others which haven't been reported as suicides yet but...
At least the Commander-in-Chief did something positive. It's not like he made much of a sacrifice but he did raise the spirits of some of the troops. I imagine that there will be those naysayers who think that the cost of the whole operation is kind of extravagant considering that he spent, what, three hours there? Not a biggie, especially if it had an effect that will help the troops. After all, he is the Boss.
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airehead
Oompa Loofah
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 14:38 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: |
What makes people leery of Greenwood's motives is his making his name writing/performing songs encouraging war efforts. Considering the fact he himself avoided/dodged (depending on your definition) it can be seen as somewhat hypocritical.
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Have we considered that he may regret his actions back then and is trying somehow to atone for them? Perhaps he has changed his mind--after much thought, and believes differently now.
Since none of us know him personaly, to speculate is pointless anyway and might end up denigrating the name of an otherwise fine individual.
I know my mind has been changed as I've grown up--I feel very differently about certain politics now than I did when I was 18. I'm glad we're allowed to grow up and change--because I was WAY wrong on some issues back then.
I am pleased at what Bush did, it took class and a lot of planning.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 15:28 Post subject:
I say given what he's put our troops through and the reasoning behind it, it's the least he could do.
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BamBam
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 15:41 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | I say given what he's put our troops through and the reasoning behind it, it's the least he could do. |
You know I thought the same thing about Somolia--but GW probably wasn't receiving a hummer when he decided to send troops into harms way.....
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copteacher
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 15:47 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | I say given what he's put our troops through and the reasoning behind it, it's the least he could do. |
It is not the least he could do. It was the right thing for the leader of the army to do. He is the commander in chief thus he also sets the morale.
I admire him more and more for his actions.
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msparks
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 16:41 Post subject:
| BamBam wrote: | | Gogirlgo wrote: | | I say given what he's put our troops through and the reasoning behind it, it's the least he could do. |
You know I thought the same thing about Somolia--but GW probably wasn't receiving a hummer when he decided to send troops into harms way..... |
Ahem...regardless of whether or not President G.W. Bush could or should do more for the troops (how about paying them more?), let's get the facts straight here. It's all too easy to be glib about the whole thing but...a quick check on the FACTS will show that on December 4, 1992, the elder Bush sent 25,000 troops to Somalia. The intent was humanitarian in nature and to provide peacekeeping forces - along with the UN. Clinton didn't take office until January 20, 1993. The size of the U.S. forces was increased approximately 25% by Clinton. So sure, go ahead and blame Clinton for not doing more to get them out of Somalia. But let's not forget who got most of them in there in the first place. It wasn't Clinton, it was Bush I.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 17:29 Post subject:
| msparks wrote: | | BamBam wrote: | | Gogirlgo wrote: | | I say given what he's put our troops through and the reasoning behind it, it's the least he could do. |
You know I thought the same thing about Somolia--but GW probably wasn't receiving a hummer when he decided to send troops into harms way..... |
Ahem...regardless of whether or not President G.W. Bush could or should do more for the troops (how about paying them more?), let's get the facts straight here. It's all too easy to be glib about the whole thing but...a quick check on the FACTS will show that on December 4, 1992, the elder Bush sent 25,000 troops to Somalia. The intent was humanitarian in nature and to provide peacekeeping forces - along with the UN. Clinton didn't take office until January 20, 1993. The size of the U.S. forces was increased approximately 25% by Clinton. So sure, go ahead and blame Clinton for not doing more to get them out of Somalia. But let's not forget who got most of them in there in the first place. It wasn't Clinton, it was
Bush I. |
??I don't understand the grip about pay. Aren't our soldiers over there enlisted or commissioned? Last I knew, you pretty much knew the pay scale when you accepted the job in the military.
When my DH resigned his commissioned, he could have had the same job for 3x the pay as a civilian. Of course it wasn't a guarantee that it would continue after 12 months and no military benes. So I "do" understand that maybe the payscale does not match civilian.....but factor in the other stuff......healthcare, housing allowance, retirement.....there are reasons that people stay in.....they aren't forced. I am thankful that people factor these in and find them appealing...because I'm really against the draft and hope that we never see that again
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msparks
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 19:09 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
??I don't understand the grip about pay. Aren't our soldiers over there enlisted or commissioned? Last I knew, you pretty much knew the pay scale when you accepted the job in the military.
When my DH resigned his commissioned, he could have had the same job for 3x the pay as a civilian. Of course it wasn't a guarantee that it would continue after 12 months and no military benes. So I "do" understand that maybe the payscale does not match civilian.....but factor in the other stuff......healthcare, housing allowance, retirement.....there are reasons that people stay in.....they aren't forced. I am thankful that people factor these in and find them appealing...because I'm really against the draft and hope that we never see that again |
The gripe about pay? Hmmm...
To answer your question, yes. Our soldiers - and sailors, Marines, airmen, - are enlisted BUT not all commissioned. I dare say there are more grunts, dogfaces, and jugass sailors than there are officers. Do you mean, didn't they all volunteer for duty? You betcha! But...maybe the payscale doesn't match civilian? Let there be no doubt: it.does.not.
And how will you compare jobs? What is the civilian job that matches that of a simple rifleman in an infantry unit? Hmmm? Although it's not an apples & oranges type of comparison, there are military jobs that just don't exist in the civilian world.
Factor in other stuff? Healthcare, housing allowance, and retirement were listed. While it's true that all milpers have healthcare provided, it's not the same as in civilian life. They can't pick and choose their physicians. Okay, that's a small point. As far as housing allowance, that doesn't apply to all military personnel. Most of them? Yes, it's true. But not every one in the military is permitted a housing allowance. Retirement? I know several military veterans. They all have another job.
Appealing? Do you happen to know the retention rate? What's the percentage of military personnel who complete their first enlistment or obligation (I'm thinking of officers here) and then leave the military? I think it's safe to say that no one (at least, I didn't) enlist in the military with the thought of becoming wealthy.
I found out yesterday that my nephew has enlisted in the Corps. He reports for duty three weeks after he graduates from high school. He'll enter with the rank of PFC/E-3. How much will he get per month? Does anyone know? I kid him about it when I tell him that he doesn't deserve as much as they're going to give him but...really, what's the value that we, as a nation, place on a single person who willingly serves his/her country? And when you're out there in the desert or down in the dark places of that aircraft carrier, you're not really thinking about how you're really doing well with healthcare, housing (gee, ever been in a bunk/rack on an aircraft carrier?), or the grub which is provided. You're doing your duty, serving your country.
Does $1300 per month sound good? It just embarrasses me as an American veteran to read that there are people serving this nation in the military and some of them need to apply and use food stamps. Oh, yeah...that's in addition to working a part-time job. It's especially shameful when our elected officials give themselves nice little increases each year.
Am I honked off about it? Doesn't anyone want to know how I really feel?
Rant Mode: OFF
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Cappy
Excelent
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 20:04 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | I say given what he's put our troops through and the reasoning behind it, it's the least he could do. |
What its gonna take from this President or any elected official to get a  from you
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kattzoo
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 21:32 Post subject:
msparks, I completely respect your opionion, and your right to have it. You'll find there are many of us connected to the service here. Do I think the troops deserve more money? Yes. So do teachers, law enforcement officers, fireman, accountants etc... I've been in the military, I've been a cop, and I'm currently a teacher. None will make me rich, but I knew that going in. My naval career was very, very, very, very short due to injury so I can't base much on it, but my husband retired from the Corp after 20 years. I've never heard him complain about pay, or feel he wasn't taken care of. In fact, at times I think he'd rather still be enlisted than working where he is now for considerably more money.
No one will get rich off of $1300, but at age 18, if you play your cards right and don't feel you have to spend it on expensive cars and toys, you'd come out okay. The problem is when these 20 year olds get married and start having kids. It's not a salary to raise a family on at that age and rank. Life comes down to choices. Don't join the service expecting monetary wealth, but to gain other experiences that will make you infinitely richer. As a veteran, I'm willing to bet you believe that too.
Nothing wrong at all with wanting better pay for the troops. I just think RunaroundSue has a great point. It is a job, and the pay is known going in. The rest of us live within our means, and we did quite nicely on Sgts pay for a long time.
| msparks wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: |
??I don't understand the grip about pay. Aren't our soldiers over there enlisted or commissioned? Last I knew, you pretty much knew the pay scale when you accepted the job in the military.
When my DH resigned his commissioned, he could have had the same job for 3x the pay as a civilian. Of course it wasn't a guarantee that it would continue after 12 months and no military benes. So I "do" understand that maybe the payscale does not match civilian.....but factor in the other stuff......healthcare, housing allowance, retirement.....there are reasons that people stay in.....they aren't forced. I am thankful that people factor these in and find them appealing...because I'm really against the draft and hope that we never see that again |
The gripe about pay? Hmmm...
To answer your question, yes. Our soldiers - and sailors, Marines, airmen, - are enlisted BUT not all commissioned. I dare say there are more grunts, dogfaces, and jugass sailors than there are officers. Do you mean, didn't they all volunteer for duty? You betcha! But...maybe the payscale doesn't match civilian? Let there be no doubt: it.does.not.
And how will you compare jobs? What is the civilian job that matches that of a simple rifleman in an infantry unit? Hmmm? Although it's not an apples & oranges type of comparison, there are military jobs that just don't exist in the civilian world.
Factor in other stuff? Healthcare, housing allowance, and retirement were listed. While it's true that all milpers have healthcare provided, it's not the same as in civilian life. They can't pick and choose their physicians. Okay, that's a small point. As far as housing allowance, that doesn't apply to all military personnel. Most of them? Yes, it's true. But not every one in the military is permitted a housing allowance. Retirement? I know several military veterans. They all have another job.
Appealing? Do you happen to know the retention rate? What's the percentage of military personnel who complete their first enlistment or obligation (I'm thinking of officers here) and then leave the military? I think it's safe to say that no one (at least, I didn't) enlist in the military with the thought of becoming wealthy.
I found out yesterday that my nephew has enlisted in the Corps. He reports for duty three weeks after he graduates from high school. He'll enter with the rank of PFC/E-3. How much will he get per month? Does anyone know? I kid him about it when I tell him that he doesn't deserve as much as they're going to give him but...really, what's the value that we, as a nation, place on a single person who willingly serves his/her country? And when you're out there in the desert or down in the dark places of that aircraft carrier, you're not really thinking about how you're really doing well with healthcare, housing (gee, ever been in a bunk/rack on an aircraft carrier?), or the grub which is provided. You're doing your duty, serving your country.
Does $1300 per month sound good? It just embarrasses me as an American veteran to read that there are people serving this nation in the military and some of them need to apply and use food stamps. Oh, yeah...that's in addition to working a part-time job. It's especially shameful when our elected officials give themselves nice little increases each year.
Am I honked off about it? Doesn't anyone want to know how I really feel?
Rant Mode: OFF |
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coachmarkos
my boys could swim
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 23:19 Post subject:
I'm staying out of the politics of this whole thing.
Let me just say as a person who has a very close family member serving over there right now...What GWB did yesterday Rocks! If you don't believe me, you didn't see the faces of my family as we were watching the news together last night.
I'm sure other families feel the same.
That was a wonderful gesture by the President, and I'm sure the troops, and at least this troop's family really appreciated it.
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msparks
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Posted: 11/28/03 - 23:24 Post subject:
| kattzoo wrote: | | Do I think the troops deserve more money? Yes. So do teachers, law enforcement officers, fireman, accountants etc... |
Aha! It's another question of value. Which professions do we value more than others and do they deserve to be paid accordingly? At least the teachers, law enforcement officers, firefighters, accountants, etc. can bargain for better wages and be represented by a union. Not so with the military. Teachers, cops, firefighters, etc. can always leave their jobs should they so desire. But when you're a milpers, you're in (or should be) for the duration of your enlistment/obligation.
| kattzoo wrote: | | I've been in the military, I've been a cop, and I'm currently a teacher. |
Hey, what's the problem? Can't keep a job?
| kattzoo wrote: | | None will make me rich, but I knew that going in. |
I don't know of a single person who ever entered into the military and thought that they'd get rich. You didn't, I didn't, your hubby didn't. That's not why we enlisted. But that doesn't mean that the pay can't and shouldn't be better.
| kattzoo wrote: | | No one will get rich off of $1300, but at age 18, if you play your cards right and don't feel you have to spend it on expensive cars and toys, you'd come out okay. |
Absolutely! No one will get rich with that kind of pay. And 18-year olds shouldn't have that expectation. And sure, there are some of those teenagers who feel like they're almost wealthy with that kind of money.
| kattzoo wrote: | | The problem is when these 20 year olds get married and start having kids. It's not a salary to raise a family on at that age and rank. |
You know, I agree with you. It's my feeling that 20-year olds shouldn't get married and start having kids - at any salary! I was a little older when I joined the Navy and I was married within a year but...we knew what we were up against. That's why we waited until after I was discharged, got another job, and could afford it. It's not just the pay, either. I mean, look...it was in the local paper just today. A soldier is coming back from Iraq in a box. He was married before he left. His wife is expecting their first child. Was their decision to have a child a good one? Nope. Gee, I don't even know if they planned on the child. No matter. It's just my opinion (and one I think you share) that it was a bad idea, all the way around. And I really don't want to get into the "is it my business to tell someone whether or not they should start a family and when" discussion. There's way too much involved with that one for this forum...and topic!
| kattzoo wrote: | | Life comes down to choices. Don't join the service expecting monetary wealth, but to gain other experiences that will make you infinitely richer. As a veteran, I'm willing to bet you believe that too. |
Again, the person looking for a milpers who expects to get rich is like Diogenes looking for the honest man. And I dare say that there are tons of veterans who did their initial enlistment and then got out, using the time spent as a stepping stone for a future career. As we well know, you don't stay in to get rich. Of course, a sergeant's pay allows him to live more comfortably than a private's pay. Yeah, let that PFC get some time in!
| kattzoo wrote: | | Nothing wrong at all with wanting better pay for the troops. I just think RunaroundSue has a great point. It is a job, and the pay is known going in. The rest of us live within our means, and we did quite nicely on Sgts pay for a long time. |
Of course the pay is known going in. My point is that people don't enlist because the pay is great. And yes, I lived within my means and I was comfortable. But even though the Navy spent a lot of time and money training me, I stood to make a lot more money on the outside. And if military retirement is so good, why is your husband working? I'd like to hear that all he does these days is cut the grass and go fishing. He deserves it. I wish I could give it to him.
Ah, well. It's most likely that this one will never be solved to everyone's satisfaction. You pay your money and you take your choice.
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runaroundsue
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Posted: 11/29/03 - 00:11 Post subject:
so.....you are saying that the military trained you for the future. This I will agree to. Maybe enlisted and commissioned see it as an internship. Hey we all know that you are pretty darn lucky to get paid at one of those jobs.
The military treated my family great and the lower pay was well worth it. If not for the opportunity and financial assistance offered by the AirForce, my husband could have went to medical school. He probably would be working in a paper factory like his dad and mine.
Just like any job, you don't like the pay....you say "no thanks". Everyone is underpaid......and they think they work harder than the next guy. I can understand your point though that there is no bargaining like many union jobs....but not all employees have that option either.
Now if you are going to gripe about unfairness in the military, I would think the obvious one is extending one's commission against the soldiers wishes. 
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