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RangerG
Bounty Hunter
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Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 7301
Location: Gmail Server Number 126
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 Posted: 09/25/06 - 19:17 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | I wouldn't compare our military to the SS, but threatening to beat someone because you don't like their opinion doesn't sound very American to me. |
To a degree you are correct. With all due respect to you Cam, the problem is Sheldon couched his comments in a manner that could be (and were) considered a personal verbal attack towards family members of people on this board. Rob's son comes to mind. It is hard enough to have a family member in harms way, without somone comparing them to members of the German SS.
A parent will, and should rise to the defense of their child's honor. In the end, it was how Sheldon couched his comments. No one has a problem with him voicing his opinion over the current government, or if we should even be at war, but as a former member of the military (as he claims..I would love to know what service he performed and with what branch) he should know they only obey the orders they are given. To second guess orders is to risk chaos within the unit and a court-martial.
Sorry to say, in this case, I think Sheldon let his bulldog mouth override his common sense. He insulted every vet on this site, as well as children and spouses currently serving. I know I felt insulted, and I felt he dishonered the 6 soldiers who's funerals I have attended this year.
Now if we want to get factual, Sheldon used the SS as a slam. However if he would spend the time to open a book once in a while, he would have known only ONE SS unit was guilty of horrors, and that was the Algamine SS who ran the death camps. All other SS units were special forces troops much like our 10th Mountain and Rangers, and were no more guilty of war crimes than any American unit of the time. And that information comes from American published history books.
As far as my standing with Rob...he is a friend, and there is little I would not do for a friend.
I hope you understand where I am coming from. I respect your opinion, and I hope you understand mine, even though you do not have a high regard of me.
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wanttorun100
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Posted: 09/26/06 - 11:15 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | I wouldn't compare our military to the SS, but threatening to beat someone because you don't like their opinion doesn't sound very American to me. |
you would of course compare President Bush to der Fuhrer
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 09/26/06 - 15:20 Post subject:
| wanttorun100 wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | I wouldn't compare our military to the SS, but threatening to beat someone because you don't like their opinion doesn't sound very American to me. |
you would of course compare President Bush to der Fuhrer
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I haven't and I wouldn't.
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wanttorun100
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Location: Just to the right of Atilla the Hun!
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Posted: 09/26/06 - 16:22 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | wanttorun100 wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | I wouldn't compare our military to the SS, but threatening to beat someone because you don't like their opinion doesn't sound very American to me. |
you would of course compare President Bush to der Fuhrer
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I haven't and I wouldn't. |
oh come on you know you want to
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GaRebelRunner
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Joined: 26 Sep 2003
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Location: Tucker, GA
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Posted: 09/26/06 - 19:33 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | wanttorun100 wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | I wouldn't compare our military to the SS, but threatening to beat someone because you don't like their opinion doesn't sound very American to me. |
you would of course compare President Bush to der Fuhrer
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I haven't and I wouldn't. |
I have and have no qualms about it.
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RangerG
Bounty Hunter
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Posted: 09/26/06 - 20:45 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | wanttorun100 wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | I wouldn't compare our military to the SS, but threatening to beat someone because you don't like their opinion doesn't sound very American to me. |
you would of course compare President Bush to der Fuhrer
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I haven't and I wouldn't. |
I have and have no qualms about it. |
Well so far Bush has not:
Imprisoned Gay's.
Ordered the murder of 8 million people of a particular religion.
Ordered the murder of mentaly ill, mentaly challenged or disabled people.
Ordered the torture of political opponants.
Ordered horrific medical experementation on twins.
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
As bad as you think Bush may be, he is no SS Leader.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 09/26/06 - 21:16 Post subject:
| RangerG wrote: | | As bad as you think Bush may be, he is no SS Leader. |
He doesn't do his own dirty work directly. He hides between others he puts in power. He hides behind politicians and conservative Church leaders who seek changes in laws to benefit their view of life and/or financial positions.
Hitler also didn't do his work directly. He came to power by building coalitions. He was even "elected" by the people before the German Parliament and he decided there were no further reason(s) for elections. Those who questioned the Nazi Party were accused of being unpatriotic and supporting the enemies of Germany.
And Hitler himself did not come after gays at first.
It was after the Nazi Party came to power and the military leaders who came after the gays. There were thriving gay groups in Berlin up until the late 30s when the Nazi Party came to power.
If we continue down the path of fear and liberal bashing that Bush and friends are using from news conferences to talk shows and even invoking the aid of Christian groups, we aren't that far off from the mid to late 1930's. And like the Germans in the 40's we won't realize what we have gotten ourselves into until it's way too late.
But maybe I'm wrong and just overly pessimistic. I hope so.
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robp
Pyromaniac
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Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 07:57 Post subject:
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | | RangerG wrote: | | As bad as you think Bush may be, he is no SS Leader. |
He doesn't do his own dirty work directly. He hides between others he puts in power. He hides behind politicians and conservative Church leaders who seek changes in laws to benefit their view of life and/or financial positions.
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Uh... since when can conservative church leaders change laws? And find me one political leader who doesn't use other politicians and high profile people to assist them in changing or making laws. Your argument is weak GRR.
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Gogirlgo
Member
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Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 4777
Location: No deal, stalker.
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 14:22 Post subject:
How come WTR gets to slam Cam Bed on a personal level?
Why can't anyone have a normal discourse on this forum?
Why are all of you wrong all the time and the only one who's right is me?
OK, that third one might be a little off. 
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andydp
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Location: Upstate NY near Albany
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 15:13 Post subject:
| robp wrote: | | GaRebelRunner wrote: | | RangerG wrote: | | As bad as you think Bush may be, he is no SS Leader. |
He doesn't do his own dirty work directly. He hides between others he puts in power. He hides behind politicians and conservative Church leaders who seek changes in laws to benefit their view of life and/or financial positions.
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Uh... since when can conservative church leaders change laws? And find me one political leader who doesn't use other politicians and high profile people to assist them in changing or making laws. Your argument is weak GRR. |
Rob I hate to burst your bubble but look around and smell the coffee !!! From day one this administration has been populated by people who are of the "Fundamentalist Christian" leanings. John Ashcroft being the most visible. There is an office in the Justice Department dealing with "religious issues".
Tell me how Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Christian Coalition or the head of the "Family Values Coucil" do NOT have any influence in this administration [I may have the name wrong, but its the group that writes to the FCC when they feel a program is "dirty". Their last one was the 9/11 real life documentary - it had dirty words because the tapes were uncut.] When Hurricane Katrina hit - FEMA's original postings on how and where to send donations was overwhelmingly faith based.
No Rob, despite how you feel, the overall theme of this administration is to bend over for the Fundies and disparage any efforts to keep the wall of separation up (Thomas Jefferson's words).
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robp
Pyromaniac
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 15:16 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | | robp wrote: | | GaRebelRunner wrote: | | RangerG wrote: | | As bad as you think Bush may be, he is no SS Leader. |
He doesn't do his own dirty work directly. He hides between others he puts in power. He hides behind politicians and conservative Church leaders who seek changes in laws to benefit their view of life and/or financial positions.
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Uh... since when can conservative church leaders change laws? And find me one political leader who doesn't use other politicians and high profile people to assist them in changing or making laws. Your argument is weak GRR. |
Rob I hate to burst your bubble but look around and smell the coffee !!! From day one this administration has been populated by people who are of the "Fundamentalist Christian" leanings. John Ashcroft being the most visible. There is an office in the Justice Department dealing with "religious issues".
Tell me how Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Christian Coalition or the head of the "Family Values Coucil" do NOT have any influence in this administration [I may have the name wrong, but its the group that writes to the FCC when they feel a program is "dirty". Their last one was the 9/11 real life documentary - it had dirty words because the tapes were uncut.] When Hurricane Katrina hit - FEMA's original postings on how and where to send donations was overwhelmingly faith based.
No Rob, despite how you feel, the overall theme of this administration is to bend over for the Fundies and disparage any efforts to keep the wall of separation up (Thomas Jefferson's words). |
Andy,
Tell me exactly what law changes the dastardly radical Christians have wrought on this poor country that have been detrimental to our well being?
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andydp
Member
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 16:27 Post subject:
| robp wrote: |
Andy,
Tell me exactly what law changes the dastardly radical Christians have wrought on this poor country that have been detrimental to our well being? |
Lets get something straight: I did not call anyone a "Radical Christian". I said there is an atmosphere of bending over to the fundametal Christian views. A willing effort to bend or break the First Amendment's establishment clause.
Please note the hot button issue of the last election: Gay Marriage. Detrimental ? No, but certainly a VERY religious issue. In reality, gays getting married would have no effect on the functions of our secular government, to provide for the common defense or estabish domestic tranquility.
That "religious office" in the Justice Department's goal is to insure that religion is allowed into governmental efforts NOT to insure the separation. Tell me the FCC isn't promoting standards based on what some Conservative Religious groups are telling them via letters (which is their right)
Let's not forget the PA Town's Board of Ed's requirement that "Intelligent Design" (Which I believe in BTW) be taught in schools. Voted down at the next election - with warnings of impending doom by Pat Robertson. For that matter look at all the discussion in Kansas about the issue. (Side note: If the Christian faith of these people is so strong, why do they need a secular government to intervene and pass laws to insure their point of view ?)
Once again rob, look around and tell me there is none or minimal influence by Conservative Christian groups in this administration. Then by all means show me where Muslim, Jews or Buddists are managing to influence the government with the same power.
True story: A buddist organization wanted to set up a temple and meditation center in a local town Knox, NY. A local "Christian" Minister got up and said that allowing the Buddists into town would ruin the "Christian Character" of the locality, not to mention trying to convert the kids. Fortunately nomal thinking prevailed and the facility was built.
Now for a divergent thought: Carl Rove, the darling of the fundies and Political Consultant extraordinarie, is not a practicins Christian. He has admitted to being an agnostic. Yet, he is the one who made Gay Marriage a hot issue so Conservatice Christians would come to the polls to enact amendments banning gay rights. Of course, while they were at the polls they could cast a vote for the Republican ticket.
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robp
Pyromaniac
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Location: Waiting in line at the beer store...
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 19:14 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | | robp wrote: |
Andy,
Tell me exactly what law changes the dastardly radical Christians have wrought on this poor country that have been detrimental to our well being? |
Lets get something straight: I did not call anyone a "Radical Christian". I said there is an atmosphere of bending over to the fundametal Christian views. A willing effort to bend or break the First Amendment's establishment clause.
Please note the hot button issue of the last election: Gay Marriage. Detrimental ? No, but certainly a VERY religious issue. In reality, gays getting married would have no effect on the functions of our secular government, to provide for the common defense or estabish domestic tranquility.
That "religious office" in the Justice Department's goal is to insure that religion is allowed into governmental efforts NOT to insure the separation. Tell me the FCC isn't promoting standards based on what some Conservative Religious groups are telling them via letters (which is their right)
Let's not forget the PA Town's Board of Ed's requirement that "Intelligent Design" (Which I believe in BTW) be taught in schools. Voted down at the next election - with warnings of impending doom by Pat Robertson. For that matter look at all the discussion in Kansas about the issue. (Side note: If the Christian faith of these people is so strong, why do they need a secular government to intervene and pass laws to insure their point of view ?)
Once again rob, look around and tell me there is none or minimal influence by Conservative Christian groups in this administration. Then by all means show me where Muslim, Jews or Buddists are managing to influence the government with the same power.
True story: A buddist organization wanted to set up a temple and meditation center in a local town Knox, NY. A local "Christian" Minister got up and said that allowing the Buddists into town would ruin the "Christian Character" of the locality, not to mention trying to convert the kids. Fortunately nomal thinking prevailed and the facility was built.
Now for a divergent thought: Carl Rove, the darling of the fundies and Political Consultant extraordinarie, is not a practicins Christian. He has admitted to being an agnostic. Yet, he is the one who made Gay Marriage a hot issue so Conservatice Christians would come to the polls to enact amendments banning gay rights. Of course, while they were at the polls they could cast a vote for the Republican ticket. |
Andy guess what. I'm not a practicing Christian either. I'm agnostic as it gets and I would vote down gay marriage in a heartbeat. I'm all for allowing gay unions where committed couples are given the same rights as anyone else for insurance etc. reasons. But that is off-topic.
Once again, your "true story" has not a dang thing to do with this administration - it was handled at the local level.
Karl Rove is just doing what a good consultant does - he's finding ways to get the vote out. Him appealing to the conservative Christians isn't any different than Howard Dean appealing to the lunatic fringe other than Rove will draw more votes for his team.
This make shock you but not all conservatives are fundamental Christians. And I'll bet there are even some fundies out there that secretly vote Democrat on occasion.....
I'm not saying one bit that there is no Christian influence in this administration. I'm just saying that this influence is being blown way out of proportion by the liberals.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 21:20 Post subject:
| robp wrote: | | [I'm not saying one bit that there is no Christian influence in this administration. I'm just saying that this influence is being blown way out of proportion by the liberals. |
Show me a link where conservative Christians in the Bush administration is being blown out of proportion by anyone.
Let's see, pro-choice initiatives, gay rights, environmental regulations, gambling - i.e. casinos, adult movies and toys, penalties for what can and cannot be said/shown on radios, media. From the Roman Catholic Church to Fred Phelps in Kansas the Bush administration weighs in on their "family values" that apparently gays and everyone else outside the Christian church don't have.
This administration and conservative Christian groups are most definitely sharing the same unholy alliance.
But don't worry. I'm still a Southern Baptist, whether Charles Stanley appreciates or not. I only have to answer to God for my actions and we have had this discussion many times.
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copteacher
Adjunct
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Joined: 08 Jun 2002
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Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
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Posted: 09/27/06 - 21:23 Post subject:
a lot of these family values you say are Christian are common in many other faiths too. Try Judiaism and Islam for instance. Both have some very conservative "value" leanings.
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