Daycare, a long rant. Please excuse...
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sidewinder
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 Posted: 05/30/03 - 10:45 Post subject:
| thegman wrote: | I'll get very fired up on this subject. 
ADD is a bogus label. I think it's a poor excuse for parents/caregivers with deficient skill or interest in guiding a child's development.
I defy anyone to find a 3 year old who doesn't have a short attention span, or doesn't act out because they can't articulate their feelings when they are angry or frustrated with their environment.
Any introductory textbook in child development will tell you that your son is acting like a normal 3 year old. He's responding to the changes in his life, after all! Do his caregivers expect him to act like a 7 year old? A 10 year old? An adult?
If it's my son, and his caregivers continue to push the ADD nonsense, I'm searching for someone else to care for him during the day.
I feel badly that you have to fight this kind of battle. It's hard enough to find someone good to care for your children without having to deal with this kind of foolishness. |
Sorry to disagree with you but ADD is not a bogus label nor is it a poor excuse as you state.
I have an ADD son who is now 24, married and still deals with ADD issues!
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 10:53 Post subject:
| sidewinder wrote: | | thegman wrote: | I'll get very fired up on this subject.
ADD is a bogus label. I think it's a poor excuse for parents/caregivers with deficient skill or interest in guiding a child's development.
I defy anyone to find a 3 year old who doesn't have a short attention span, or doesn't act out because they can't articulate their feelings when they are angry or frustrated with their environment.
Any introductory textbook in child development will tell you that your son is acting like a normal 3 year old. He's responding to the changes in his life, after all! Do his caregivers expect him to act like a 7 year old? A 10 year old? An adult?
If it's my son, and his caregivers continue to push the ADD nonsense, I'm searching for someone else to care for him during the day.
I feel badly that you have to fight this kind of battle. It's hard enough to find someone good to care for your children without having to deal with this kind of foolishness. |
Sorry to disagree with you but ADD is not a bogus label nor is it a poor excuse as you state.
I have an ADD son who is now 24, married and still deals with ADD issues! |
While I don't think ADD is necessarily a bogus label, I do think it is one that is used entirely too often to label then medicate what should be a described as a behavior problem. Too many parents and teachers are ready to medicate because it is easier to sedate than to create and maintain a behavior management program. ADD happens, I just think it's actually more rare than what we as a society claim.
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Sandy Cheeks
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 12:47 Post subject:
I agree with everyone here. My sister is a preschool teacher and she says the same things Pebbles did.
But I mostly just wanted to say that Monk and Buffy sound like incredible parents. 
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genie
Master of Prissface
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 13:35 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | sidewinder wrote: | | thegman wrote: | I'll get very fired up on this subject.
ADD is a bogus label. I think it's a poor excuse for parents/caregivers with deficient skill or interest in guiding a child's development.
I defy anyone to find a 3 year old who doesn't have a short attention span, or doesn't act out because they can't articulate their feelings when they are angry or frustrated with their environment.
Any introductory textbook in child development will tell you that your son is acting like a normal 3 year old. He's responding to the changes in his life, after all! Do his caregivers expect him to act like a 7 year old? A 10 year old? An adult?
If it's my son, and his caregivers continue to push the ADD nonsense, I'm searching for someone else to care for him during the day.
I feel badly that you have to fight this kind of battle. It's hard enough to find someone good to care for your children without having to deal with this kind of foolishness. |
Sorry to disagree with you but ADD is not a bogus label nor is it a poor excuse as you state.
I have an ADD son who is now 24, married and still deals with ADD issues! |
While I don't think ADD is necessarily a bogus label, I do think it is one that is used entirely too often to label then medicate what should be a described as a behavior problem. Too many parents and teachers are ready to medicate because it is easier to sedate than to create and maintain a behavior management program. ADD happens, I just think it's actually more rare than what we as a society claim. |
I agree, having worked in child psych, you're absolutely right! And what's worse, half of the "behavioral problems" are also misdiagnosed and kids are labeled that way too. Nine times out of 10 a kid is acting out as a way to express something that's going on, anger, rage, sorrow, whatever, not just because they're a brat. It's an uphill battle that we in human services have been fighting for years. No one seems to want to take the time to do thorough evals on kids to find out what's really going on behind their behavior. ADD is definitely a real issue but it is way less common than a lot of doctors would have us think. I've watched many kids go through the system overmedicated and not getting any better because what was really going on with them was never addressed. Very sad indeed.
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thegman
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 13:43 Post subject:
| sidewinder wrote: | | thegman wrote: | I'll get very fired up on this subject.
ADD is a bogus label. I think it's a poor excuse for parents/caregivers with deficient skill or interest in guiding a child's development.
I defy anyone to find a 3 year old who doesn't have a short attention span, or doesn't act out because they can't articulate their feelings when they are angry or frustrated with their environment.
Any introductory textbook in child development will tell you that your son is acting like a normal 3 year old. He's responding to the changes in his life, after all! Do his caregivers expect him to act like a 7 year old? A 10 year old? An adult?
If it's my son, and his caregivers continue to push the ADD nonsense, I'm searching for someone else to care for him during the day.
I feel badly that you have to fight this kind of battle. It's hard enough to find someone good to care for your children without having to deal with this kind of foolishness. |
Sorry to disagree with you but ADD is not a bogus label nor is it a poor excuse as you state.
I have an ADD son who is now 24, married and still deals with ADD issues! |
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I believe it is a bogus label in this case, and I do so in most cases.
The problem is, ADD (or ADHD or whatever other acronyms are grouped together) is treated like an organic disease by using Schedule II drugs. It's not an organic disease.
Not a single learning disability or behavioral disturbance/disorder is a proved disease with a confirming, physical abnormality, much less, one diagnosable or confirmable with any type of brain scan. Functional correlates and illusions of disease? Yes. Proven diseases? Absolutely not.
Neurology deals with organic diseases of the brain. Psychiatry deals with emotional and behavioral problems in the physically normal. Psychiatry’s pretence that it diagnosed “diseases” / “chemical imbalances” commenced with the appearance of psychiatric drugs on the market during the 1960's. Not a single psychiatric disease has “crossed over” becoming “neurological” by virtue of science having discovered an organic basis. None. Not even schizophrenia. But all can, and many do, develop neurological diseases/syndromes once neurotoxic “treatments” are begun.
Why would billions of dollars be spent worldwide looking for an organic/biological/neurological dimension to entities which are known to be nothing more or less than the range of emotions or behavior in a biologically normal individual? Take a look at the balance sheet of any pharmaceutical company, and I think you'll find the answer.
Do I think ADD exists? Sure. Do I think that medication should be used to treat it? Nope.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 13:56 Post subject:
| thegman wrote: | | sidewinder wrote: | | thegman wrote: | I'll get very fired up on this subject.
ADD is a bogus label. I think it's a poor excuse for parents/caregivers with deficient skill or interest in guiding a child's development.
I defy anyone to find a 3 year old who doesn't have a short attention span, or doesn't act out because they can't articulate their feelings when they are angry or frustrated with their environment.
Any introductory textbook in child development will tell you that your son is acting like a normal 3 year old. He's responding to the changes in his life, after all! Do his caregivers expect him to act like a 7 year old? A 10 year old? An adult?
If it's my son, and his caregivers continue to push the ADD nonsense, I'm searching for someone else to care for him during the day.
I feel badly that you have to fight this kind of battle. It's hard enough to find someone good to care for your children without having to deal with this kind of foolishness. |
Sorry to disagree with you but ADD is not a bogus label nor is it a poor excuse as you state.
I have an ADD son who is now 24, married and still deals with ADD issues! |
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I believe it is a bogus label in this case, and I do so in most cases.
The problem is, ADD (or ADHD or whatever other acronyms are grouped together) is treated like an organic disease by using Schedule II drugs. It's not an organic disease.
Not a single learning disability or behavioral disturbance/disorder is a proved disease with a confirming, physical abnormality, much less, one diagnosable or confirmable with any type of brain scan. Functional correlates and illusions of disease? Yes. Proven diseases? Absolutely not.
Neurology deals with organic diseases of the brain. Psychiatry deals with emotional and behavioral problems in the physically normal. Psychiatry’s pretence that it diagnosed “diseases” / “chemical imbalances” commenced with the appearance of psychiatric drugs on the market during the 1960's. Not a single psychiatric disease has “crossed over” becoming “neurological” by virtue of science having discovered an organic basis. None. Not even schizophrenia. But all can, and many do, develop neurological diseases/syndromes once neurotoxic “treatments” are begun.
Why would billions of dollars be spent worldwide looking for an organic/biological/neurological dimension to entities which are known to be nothing more or less than the range of emotions or behavior in a biologically normal individual? Take a look at the balance sheet of any pharmaceutical company, and I think you'll find the answer.
Do I think ADD exists? Sure. Do I think that medication should be used to treat it? Nope. |
I'm not sure where to start here, or even if I should start.
You are wrong, for one thing. There are many diseases/disorders that are considered to be in the psychiatric realm that have physical findings, including neurotransmitter imbalances in the brain, changes in brain function on a variety of scans, and changes in brain anatomy on autopsy. There is physical evidence, the science is just now starting to be advanced enough to see it.
Epilepsy was at one time thought to be psychiatric diseases but is now accepted to be a disease process.
The mind set of many psychiatrists and neurologist is that there is an "artificial distinction" between the two specialities and that as science progresses the distinction will become less and less.
As for medication not being needed in children with ADD, you are wrong. If you have ever seen a child who needs it both on and off meds I bet you would change your mind. I could give you numerous examples, both professional and personal, but I know for a fact it can be what makes the difference between a child succeeding or failing in school.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 14:03 Post subject:
Monk - as far as whether your boy has ADD or not, I have no idea and I don't think anyone can make that judgement either way based on the information given.
Maybe it is just a bad daycare situation with her leaping to judgement, but maybe not. Your gut probably tells you if there is really anything to be concerned about, and if there is even a little question in your mind, get him tested. There are things to evaluate even at 3 1/2 years old and help they could give you/him.
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thegman
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 14:14 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
I'm not sure where to start here, or even if I should start.
You are wrong, for one thing. There are many diseases/disorders that are considered to be in the psychiatric realm that have physical findings, including neurotransmitter imbalances in the brain, changes in brain function on a variety of scans, and changes in brain anatomy on autopsy. There is physical evidence, the science is just now starting to be advanced enough to see it. Which ones? Are the physical findings discovered after treatment begins?
Epilepsy was at one time thought to be psychiatric diseases but is now accepted to be a disease process. No dispute. It's also something that can be detected with testing. I've yet to see any data that proves ADD is organic.
The mind set of many psychiatrists and neurologist is that there is an "artificial distinction" between the two specialities and that as science progresses the distinction will become less and less. For reasons I outlined before, I think it's sloppy medicine, at best.
As for medication not being needed in children with ADD, you are wrong. If you have ever seen a child who needs it both on and off meds I bet you would change your mind. I have, and it didn't. I could give you numerous examples, both professional and personal, but I know for a fact it can be what makes the difference between a child succeeding or failing in school. Is it failing vs. succeeding, or drugging a child into behavior modification? |
I'm not intending to be argumentative, although it's my job.  I'll respectfully disagree with you on this. I've seen and read enough to form my opinion, whether I'm wrong or not.
If it's my child, I'm going to make every possible attempt to solve the problem without the use of addictive and exceptionally powerful medication.
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shelflifers
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 14:54 Post subject:
PH was right...You cats are a smart bunch! Think I'll print this up and file it for when I have kids....
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monk25
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 19:21 Post subject:
Update.
My son was an angel today. They went to the park and he had gotten a nap for the first time in a couple of weeks, he apparently had not been taking his usual naps (something of which I was unaware).
Funny how a little physical activity and a nap cured him.
The daycare owner didn't have anything to say to me.
Thanks to all of you guys, you rock my face off. Buffy read the thread at work and was just blown away, I am fortunate to have friends like all of you.
You are all invited to my place for dinner.
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megawill
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 22:02 Post subject:
nevermind
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 05/30/03 - 22:05 Post subject:
| thegman wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: |
I'm not sure where to start here, or even if I should start.
You are wrong, for one thing. There are many diseases/disorders that are considered to be in the psychiatric realm that have physical findings, including neurotransmitter imbalances in the brain, changes in brain function on a variety of scans, and changes in brain anatomy on autopsy. There is physical evidence, the science is just now starting to be advanced enough to see it. Which ones? Are the physical findings discovered after treatment begins?
Epilepsy was at one time thought to be psychiatric diseases but is now accepted to be a disease process. No dispute. It's also something that can be detected with testing. I've yet to see any data that proves ADD is organic.
The mind set of many psychiatrists and neurologist is that there is an "artificial distinction" between the two specialities and that as science progresses the distinction will become less and less. For reasons I outlined before, I think it's sloppy medicine, at best.
As for medication not being needed in children with ADD, you are wrong. If you have ever seen a child who needs it both on and off meds I bet you would change your mind. I have, and it didn't. I could give you numerous examples, both professional and personal, but I know for a fact it can be what makes the difference between a child succeeding or failing in school. Is it failing vs. succeeding, or drugging a child into behavior modification? |
I'm not intending to be argumentative, although it's my job. I'll respectfully disagree with you on this. I've seen and read enough to form my opinion, whether I'm wrong or not.
If it's my child, I'm going to make every possible attempt to solve the problem without the use of addictive and exceptionally powerful medication. |
http://www.namiscc.org/Research/2002/BrainScansDetectSchizophrenia.htm
brain changes in schizophrenia
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/news/mri.htm
mri to diagnose mental illness
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch12.asp
Brain scan images, both with and without medication, show the differences in brain patterns
Here are just three sources I found regarding brain changes in mental illness. This is what I got from the first page of a Google search. I’m sure I could come up with many more if I had access to a medical search engine.
Many neurotransmitters have been identified and shown to impact specific emotions/behaviors. Are you saying you don’t believe they are a proven link? There a numerous chemical processed that go on in the body – the endocrine system comes to mind – why is it possible for chemicals to affect every single organ in the body but not the brain? If you don’t believe there is a biological dimension to control of emotions and behaviors, what is it controlled by?
It is well known that common side effect of low (or very high) blood sugar is behavior/mood changes and difficulty concentrating. Same thing in thyroid deficiency. If those chemical processes can affect the brain, why not something within the brain itself? I would assume you don’t think those should be left untreated, why should disorders of the brain be left untreated?
Yes, the side effects from psychotropic drugs can be severe. But so can the consequences of the diseases.
As for trying other things before drug treatment with children, absolutely you should. And even with medication, other treatments need to be in place. But when other measures don’t work, medication can be extremely helpful.
Monk, glad to hear you son had a better day. Amazing what a little sleep and food can do for a kid, huh?
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thegman
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Posted: 05/31/03 - 00:26 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | thegman wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: |
I'm not sure where to start here, or even if I should start.
You are wrong, for one thing. There are many diseases/disorders that are considered to be in the psychiatric realm that have physical findings, including neurotransmitter imbalances in the brain, changes in brain function on a variety of scans, and changes in brain anatomy on autopsy. There is physical evidence, the science is just now starting to be advanced enough to see it. Which ones? Are the physical findings discovered after treatment begins?
Epilepsy was at one time thought to be psychiatric diseases but is now accepted to be a disease process. No dispute. It's also something that can be detected with testing. I've yet to see any data that proves ADD is organic.
The mind set of many psychiatrists and neurologist is that there is an "artificial distinction" between the two specialities and that as science progresses the distinction will become less and less. For reasons I outlined before, I think it's sloppy medicine, at best.
As for medication not being needed in children with ADD, you are wrong. If you have ever seen a child who needs it both on and off meds I bet you would change your mind. I have, and it didn't. I could give you numerous examples, both professional and personal, but I know for a fact it can be what makes the difference between a child succeeding or failing in school. Is it failing vs. succeeding, or drugging a child into behavior modification? |
I'm not intending to be argumentative, although it's my job. I'll respectfully disagree with you on this. I've seen and read enough to form my opinion, whether I'm wrong or not.
If it's my child, I'm going to make every possible attempt to solve the problem without the use of addictive and exceptionally powerful medication. |
http://www.namiscc.org/Research/2002/BrainScansDetectSchizophrenia.htm
brain changes in schizophrenia
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Thought_Disorders/schizo/news/mri.htm
mri to diagnose mental illness
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/atlas/ch12.asp
Brain scan images, both with and without medication, show the differences in brain patterns
Here are just three sources I found regarding brain changes in mental illness. This is what I got from the first page of a Google search. I’m sure I could come up with many more if I had access to a medical search engine.
Many neurotransmitters have been identified and shown to impact specific emotions/behaviors. Are you saying you don’t believe they are a proven link? There a numerous chemical processed that go on in the body – the endocrine system comes to mind – why is it possible for chemicals to affect every single organ in the body but not the brain? If you don’t believe there is a biological dimension to control of emotions and behaviors, what is it controlled by?
It is well known that common side effect of low (or very high) blood sugar is behavior/mood changes and difficulty concentrating. Same thing in thyroid deficiency. If those chemical processes can affect the brain, why not something within the brain itself? I would assume you don’t think those should be left untreated, why should disorders of the brain be left untreated?
Yes, the side effects from psychotropic drugs can be severe. But so can the consequences of the diseases.
As for trying other things before drug treatment with children, absolutely you should. And even with medication, other treatments need to be in place. But when other measures don’t work, medication can be extremely helpful.
Monk, glad to hear you son had a better day. Amazing what a little sleep and food can do for a kid, huh? |
Interesting links, thanks. "May","might" and "could" appear too many times for me to be sold yet. Also, I was unable to determine from the text if the subjects tested had received any type or regimen of neurotoxic treatment before they were scanned. It makes me wonder if the tail isn't wagging the dog.
My point all along has been that ADD hasn't been proven as an organic disorder. To treat it like it is one is reckless medicine, IMO.
I expect that there will eventually be a diagnostic tool for ADD, at which point millions of individuals will be proven to have been misdiagnosed as having it.
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rolling rock
The Pinball
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Posted: 05/31/03 - 07:01 Post subject:
| monk25 wrote: |
Funny how a little physical activity and a nap cured him. |
what is it with guys and naps and feeling groovy???
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monk25
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Posted: 05/31/03 - 08:26 Post subject:
| rolling rock wrote: | | monk25 wrote: |
Funny how a little physical activity and a nap cured him. |
what is it with guys and naps and feeling groovy??? |
Like father like son.
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