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Sahara
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 Posted: 04/25/05 - 17:18 Post subject: Re: Christian citizenship
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | was the phrase I heard used by a speaker during Justice Sunday. Apparently the fundamentalist folk are getting their flocks to call their congresspeople and attack gay marriage, activist judges, Democratic filibustering et al. |
Who sponsored Justice Sunday? Please forgive my ignorance if it's commonly known. Where was it held (goverment-owned facility?)?
| Quote: | | How come no one's 501c3 status is in jeopardy as a result of this? |
Because it's not September/October/November... then one side or the other would be all over this particular issue.
| Quote: | | ...it feels to me not that people are rallying around their beliefs but that their beliefs are being told to them. As in believe this or get out. |
uhm... that's pretty much the norm for most organized religion in this country
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DCRunningDiva
Look at me!!! ©
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Joined: 10 Oct 2003
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Location: Washington DC Metro
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 05:50 Post subject:
I probably go to one of the most "political" churches around. I'm in the heart of DC, my pastor is on the president's counsel for the handicapped (or something along those lines), I have Congressmen/women and Senators that go to my church, I have big-time executives that go to my church, etc. If one church has political pull it would be mine for sure.
Lately we have not had any political talk coming from the pulpit. However, before the presidential election we sure did. Did our pastor say to vote for Bush? No. Did he say to make an educated vote. Yes. I personally think this story you are referring to has been blown out of proportion.
As an Evangelical Christian I can say there are certain common beliefs among us all. However, there are few that don't believe the same way. It is difficult for a friend of mine who is an Evangelical Christian and a Democrat because her belief system is different than most. However, she still votes the way she believes is best. Nothing that can be said from the pulpit will sway her in the other direction. I was a Democrat for years (you almost have to be living in KY) before I realized that my Christian belief system did not line up with the politics the Democrats believed in. I had to make a choice what was more important...my Christianity or my politics...I'm a Republican now. 
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 08:54 Post subject:
| DCRunningDiva wrote: | | I had to make a choice what was more important...my Christianity or my politics...I'm a Republican now. |
that's scary, because a lot of what I'm hearing from evangelicals/fundamentalists and Republicans is that to be Republican is to be Christian. Or that to be Christian is to be Republican. That there are no other ways to be Christian than to hold a certain set of beliefs and those beliefs are the same ones held by Republicans.
I KNOW that you didn't SAY that in your statement, Diva. I just want to say that this concept is implicit in messages from Republicans, Focus on the Family, and the Family Research Council. (the group that sponsored Justice Sunday, for Sahara's info.)
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 09:16 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | that's scary |
There's a judgement and personal stab.
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 09:19 Post subject:
| blur wrote: |
There's a judgement and personal stab. |
and you are???
Diva and I have been having these conversations a long time. she knows the personal respect I have for her, even when we disagree. It looks like you haven't been around long enough to know that.
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purple hayes
Frightened Inmate #2
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Joined: 14 May 2002
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Location: ON YOUR LEFT!
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 12:13 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | and you are??? |
Banned, I think, is the word you're looking for.
/no puppets.
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bburgoyne26
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Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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Posted: 04/26/05 - 21:21 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
what I'm hearing from evangelicals/fundamentalists and Republicans is that to be Republican is to be Christian. Or that to be Christian is to be Republican. That there are no other ways to be Christian than to hold a certain set of beliefs and those beliefs are the same ones held by Republicans.
I just want to say that this concept is implicit in messages from Republicans, Focus on the Family, and the Family Research Council. (the group that sponsored Justice Sunday, for Sahara's info.) |
That is the tone that I sense, but then maybe I'm just paranoid?.....or then again, since I'm in the liberal branch of Lutherans (ELCA), maybe I'm not a real Christian....... 
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DCRunningDiva
Look at me!!! ©
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 06:51 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
that's scary, because a lot of what I'm hearing from evangelicals/fundamentalists and Republicans is that to be Republican is to be Christian. Or that to be Christian is to be Republican. That there are no other ways to be Christian than to hold a certain set of beliefs and those beliefs are the same ones held by Republicans.
I KNOW that you didn't SAY that in your statement, Diva. I just want to say that this concept is implicit in messages from Republicans, Focus on the Family, and the Family Research Council. (the group that sponsored Justice Sunday, for Sahara's info.) |
I believe the majority of Evangelicals are Republicans although I know many who aren't. For me, when I really started to understand the differences between Dems & Rep's I realized that my morals and beliefs fell in line with the Rep more than the Dems. It wasn't a matter of "I'm a Christian so I need to be a Rep." There are very important issues in my life that the Dems don't support and it was as easy as pie to make up my mind as to which party to follow.
Growing up in KY you didn't really have much of a choice in voting (on a local level) if you were a Republican. I wasn't into political things "back in the day" and didn't care which party I followed. I joined the party my mom was affiliated with (Dems). I had never really understood the parties or what they stood for until I was a little older (and wiser). Then, as I said, the choice was easy.
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TOsteve
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 08:33 Post subject:
I’m assuming 501c3 has to do with tax exemption/charitable organization status (remember, I’m foreign)? Churches in Canada apply for a similar designation. I would like to see an even further separation of church from state where churches stopped applying for this status and operated outside the benefits that this affords.
I’m very much in favour of separating church from state at every possible level. I’m coming at it more from the side of being frustrated when government bureaucracy impedes churches from meeting needs in their communities. I really don’t believe that the church can become the type of social influence that (I believe) it needs to be as long as (to greater or lesser extents depending on the church) it’s in the back pocket of corrupt governments.
I know that, initially, this idea would create a huge adjustment in fiscal thinking for churches in North America. But I’m becoming more and more convinced that the long term benefit would outweigh the short term sacrifice. I believe strongly in social health care and social education – not so much in social churches. Just my  .
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 10:46 Post subject:
So what's your thinking, Steve, on faith-based initiatives, in which our gov dumps the social programs it historically shouldered on religious entities, which may or may not use the product as an entree into their philosophy?
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 11:23 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | So what's your thinking, Steve, on faith-based initiatives, in which our gov dumps the social programs it historically shouldered on religious entities, which may or may not use the product as an entree into their philosophy? |
There are 2 problems: in some sense, the religious entities use the social program as an entry point to their organization or philosophy; that is certainly how some groups would want to use the "charity." On the other hand, when the feds give money, they also create a system of requirements that the organization must meet in order to be eligible to recieve the monies. it is possible that gov't would hinder that organization by piling on more on more requirements including some that might interfere with the organizations religious freedoms.
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TOsteve
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 12:21 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | So what's your thinking, Steve, on faith-based initiatives, in which our gov dumps the social programs it historically shouldered on religious entities, which may or may not use the product as an entree into their philosophy? |
Sorry, but like 9 out of 10 days, its a slow brain day for me. I'm not sure I fully understand your question, especially the bolded part. Do you have a particular situation in mind?
I would hate to see the government get to the point where it had unloaded all of its social responsibility onto the church or other faith based initiatives. I would love to see the church get to the point where it was willing and able to shoulder a much larger part of that load.
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RexRacer
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Location: A pancake house of ineffable crappiness
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 12:39 Post subject:
I think the problems come down to the philosophy and goals of the individual parish or church entity.
I make food to serve at a Catholic-based weekend kitchen and we are exhorted not to use pork products "out of respect for our Muslim guests." Yet, there are also many places where when you get the grub, you get the pitch, or sermon, etc.
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TOsteve
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 13:43 Post subject:
I’m awake now, I understand Melissa’s original question. 
I don’t have a problem with churches using their social outreaches as an opportunity to share their faith. In fact, I think that Christians have the responsibility to confess that it is the love of Christ that compels them to take these actions. Whether or not those receiving the help come to believe the same thing should not be a qualification to have access to the help. Churches may have the legal right to restrict this kind of access, especially if they weren’t registered as a charitable organization, but in so doing would be displaying a complete lack of understanding of the gospel they claim to believe.
I have a faith that, with the right kind of leadership, this type of hypocracy can be eliminated from the church and her moral heart can be changed so that she is a more effective agent for social reform.
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copteacher
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Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
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Posted: 04/27/05 - 17:49 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | So , in which our gov dumps the social programs it historically shouldered on religious entities? |
it is funny that the gov had to take over what the church used to do. 
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