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Gogirlgo
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 Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:05 Post subject: Christian citizenship
was the phrase I heard used by a speaker during Justice Sunday. Apparently the fundamentalist folk are getting their flocks to call their congresspeople and attack gay marriage, activist judges, Democratic filibustering et al.
Whatever happened to separation of church and state? How come no one's 501c3 status is in jeopardy as a result of this?
Fearmongering scares me.
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:09 Post subject:
I don't know that this is a church/state issue. If you and other like minded people believe that something is morally wrong, you are likely to try to let your elected officials know that this is something you want changed.
So, I do think one role of the church in society is to try to affect social change.
I also think that the closer churches and religious men and women get into politics directly, the more likely they will be corrupted by what they are getting into. Either the mission or the message will be corrupted in some way.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:12 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | I don't know that this is a church/state issue. If you and other like minded people believe that something is morally wrong, you are likely to try to let your elected officials know that this is something you want changed.
So, I do think one role of the church in society is to try to affect social change.
I also think that the closer churches and religious men and women get into politics directly, the more likely they will be corrupted by what they are getting into. Either the mission or the message will be corrupted in some way. |
Assuming everyone feels the same way, effecting social change is great. When people are told how to feel, it's a different story. I agree completely with your last paragraph.
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cherylpf
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:15 Post subject:
Can you explain "Christian Citizenship"? Just being actively involved politically based on Christian beliefs or what? I was expecting some sort of secessionist movement of a Christian nation or something when I opened this...
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Pug
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:18 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
Assuming everyone feels the same way, effecting social change is great. When people are told how to feel, it's a different story. I agree completely with your last paragraph. |
Nobody will always feel the same way about something, though. Many disagreed vehemently with the Civil Rights movement or with Abolition, or giving women the vote. But a group worked for the social change in each of these areas (and others) despite great social disagreement about the issue.
No, I don't think that what is happening now is on the same level as the issues I listed, but the idea is the same.
A trouble that I see is that people only seem to get involved when they get upset about something, so I imagine there isn't a lot of praise going towards the government saying "good job in blocking that appointment, way to use that fillibuster."
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:26 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: |
Nobody will always feel the same way about something, though. Many disagreed vehemently with the Civil Rights movement or with Abolition, or giving women the vote. But a group worked for the social change in each of these areas (and others) despite great social disagreement about the issue.
No, I don't think that what is happening now is on the same level as the issues I listed, but the idea is the same.
A trouble that I see is that people only seem to get involved when they get upset about something, so I imagine there isn't a lot of praise going towards the government saying "good job in blocking that appointment, way to use that fillibuster." |
You're right, I misspoke. What I meant was not that everyone has to feel the same way but it has to be their belief. I feel this movement is handing people their beliefs.
Times were different but people who worked for civil rights did a whole lot more than call their congresspeople. They went to jail for making speeches. They were killed during marches. They were ostracized by their towns for insisting everyone be able to vote.
Pf, that phrase is what I heard used by the person broading this message yesterday. I think it implies that one's citizenship ought to be thought of in consideration of one's religious views. By extension one ought to carry out political ideals based on the premise of the New Testament being infallible.
I don't see that this is a lot different from a rabbi, priest, reverend or imam telling his flock from the pulpit how to vote. And that is something a church can lose its status over, as I understand it.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:48 Post subject:
501c3 is exactly why the NAACP is getting in trouble.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:53 Post subject: Re: Christian citizenship
| Gogirlgo wrote: | was the phrase I heard used by a speaker during Justice Sunday. Apparently the fundamentalist folk are getting their flocks to call their congresspeople and attack gay marriage, activist judges, Democratic filibustering et al.
Fearmongering scares me. |
But their expression of their first amendment, speech, press and petititioning the government should not scare you at all.
Many a candidate gets into the pulpit on Sunday's too. Look no further than your fair city.
MLK Jr rallied his folks from the pulpit
The abolishionist movement had its genesis in the church
Most of the meetings of the formation of this very country, pre revolution were in the churches.
Just because the church rallies a cause is no different than any other group encouraging their members to do the same.
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:57 Post subject:
It appears that a certain group is saying "any opposition to the elimination of the filibuster is a sign of antipathy toward religious faith." It's like saying, if you are in favor of keeping the filibuster as it is, then you are attacking Christians. Can the integrity of a person's faith be determined by their political positions? Can a person's political position be the standard by which to measure their religious conviction?
the filibuster has been in place for a long time. it's considered tried and true and used by both parties. Now, it seems we're being told that it must be done away with, and those who oppose discarding the filibuster are really just opposed to people of faith. I'm not opposed to people of faith, but I am opposed to making a certain type of religion the litmus test for politics, and I'm opposed to the kind of politics that make 1 kind of faith the litmus test for democracy.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 11:59 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: | | 501c3 is exactly why the NAACP is getting in trouble. |
How's that?
And the other points you made below don't address my concerns that it feels to me not that people are rallying around their beliefs but that their beliefs are being told to them. As in believe this or get out. Similar to the Pope's letter last summer to American bishops about how American politicians who support abortion rights should not be allowed to take communion. In other words, do what we say even if it means abandoning what you swore to uphold and what you are legally charged to uphold or we will withhold your connection to your god. From this it's a short jump to "think what we tell you to think."
I swear I can hear Orwell laughing his head off.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 12:03 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: |
How's that?
And the other points you made below don't address my concerns that it feels to me not that people are rallying around their beliefs but that their beliefs are being told to them. As in believe this or get out. Similar to the Pope's letter last summer to American bishops about how American politicians who support abortion rights should not be allowed to take communion. In other words, do what we say even if it means abandoning what you swore to uphold and what you are legally charged to uphold or we will withhold your connection to your god. From this it's a short jump to "think what we tell you to think."
I swear I can hear Orwell laughing his head off. |
People are not forced at gun point to the church. I am of the mindset that people make intelligent choices and hear all sides.
As long as the goverment is not forcing it. It is fine with me. Religon is a big reason people came to America. If one wants to worship a tree that is fine with me. My forefathers fought, bled and died for that right.
I believe in Orwells that state/country was making the rules.
We are a far way from that.
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 12:06 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: |
People are not forced at gun point to the church. I am of the mindset that people make intelligent choices and hear all sides.
As long as the goverment is not forcing it. It is fine with me. Religon is a big reason people came to America. If one wants to worship a tree that is fine with me. My forefathers fought, bled and died for that right.
I believe in Orwells that state/country was making the rules.
We are a far way from that. |
there's the mistake in your thinking; not everyone wants to think for themselves.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 12:08 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
there's the mistake in your thinking; not everyone wants to think for themselves. |
Shame on them for being misinformed then. Personal responsiblity and accountabilty.
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 12:13 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: |
Shame on them for being misinformed then. Personal responsiblity and accountabilty. |
and for those who wish to have others do their thinking, there are plenty that are willing to do that for them. when those groups get together, it usually ends up being a cult.
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/25/05 - 12:40 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
and for those who wish to have others do their thinking, there are plenty that are willing to do that for them. when those groups get together, it usually ends up being a cult. |
but cults rarely have any large political impact.
Extreme groups on both sides of the spectrum can be viewed in the same way. Whether it be religious or environmental terrorist extreme groups. They both have traits of a cult mentality.
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