Children's Book Removed from Shelves
|
|
 
|
|
|
|
|
|
cherylpf
crazy cat lady
|
|
|
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 17305
|
| Back to top
|
|
 Posted: 05/13/05 - 11:52 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
Now that makes sense to me. |
well said, Steve.
|
|
|
|
|
TOsteve
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Out for a run
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 12:02 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: |
well said, Steve. |
I don't become a parent until this August....
Let's see how rational I am a year from now. 
Edited to say: Sorry Joe, off topic.
|
|
|
|
|
copteacher
Adjunct
|
|
|
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 20588
Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 12:04 Post subject:
| TOsteve wrote: |
I don't become a parent until this August....
Let's see how rational I am a year from now.
Edited to say: Sorry Joe, off topic. |
got it. But actually you are on point. Your whole perspective may change.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 12:27 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
I agree with you that two men falling in love is a sensitive subject for some people, though obviously I disagree that it should be. So on one hand I think, fine, let them put it away and let the parents decide. But on the other hand, I think, whether someone likes it or notw, homosexuals are part of society - always have been and always will be. Why should we be trying to hide the evidence of that and pretend "they" don't exist?
If a parent has a problem with homosexuality, they can use the book as an opportunity to pass on their views. |
I don't necessarily want to pass on my views. I don't think it is age appropriate. I want him exposed when he can understand for himself and make his own decision about homosexuality being right or wrong. 5-7 year olds can't do that according to many people they don't know right or wrong at that age. In my own experience, 8-9 is more appropriate. Only because my son is exposed to a 2 moms situation and now that he is pushing more towards nine, he "is" asking more questions like "does Daniels' two moms kiss?" at the beginning of the year it was "Daniel doesn't have a dad, he has 2 moms".
|
|
|
|
|
camelia bedelia
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 2808
Location: God's Country
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 13:44 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
I don't necessarily want to pass on my views. I don't think it is age appropriate. I want him exposed when he can understand for himself and make his own decision about homosexuality being right or wrong. 5-7 year olds can't do that according to many people they don't know right or wrong at that age. In my own experience, 8-9 is more appropriate. Only because my son is exposed to a 2 moms situation and now that he is pushing more towards nine, he "is" asking more questions like "does Daniels' two moms kiss?" at the beginning of the year it was "Daniel doesn't have a dad, he has 2 moms". |
I guess I don’t see 5-7 yeard-old as too young to know there are gay people in our society. Is the hesitance because people think it is going to raise questions about sex? I would assume most 5-7 years old understand a man and a woman could get married; I don’t think anyone would presume that would automatically lead to a discussion about sex. If that were they case, all fairy tales where the princess marries the prince would have to be moved as well.
I had a discussion with my son about homosexuality when he was 5. We talked about it in the most basis terms in a way that he could understand – it means a man wants to marry a man and a woman wants to marry a woman. The issue of sex was never a part of the discussion because 1) that’s not all homosexuality is about, and 2) he wasn’t even remotely ready for the sex talk. Of course at that time, he wanted to be gay and marry his best friend Sam. Now he doesn’t want to marry anyone because kissing is gross!!!. 
|
|
|
|
|
Ms. Jenn
Fresh, Hot & Wild
|
|
|
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 7935
Location: Suite 550
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 13:51 Post subject:
FYI-the legislature wants the books removed from all library shelves.
The Tulsa City-County library refused to remove it, but rather re-catalogued it.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 14:56 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
I guess I don’t see 5-7 yeard-old as too young to know there are gay people in our society. Is the hesitance because people think it is going to raise questions about sex? I would assume most 5-7 years old understand a man and a woman could get married; I don’t think anyone would presume that would automatically lead to a discussion about sex. If that were they case, all fairy tales where the princess marries the prince would have to be moved as well.
I had a discussion with my son about homosexuality when he was 5. We talked about it in the most basis terms in a way that he could understand – it means a man wants to marry a man and a woman wants to marry a woman. The issue of sex was never a part of the discussion because 1) that’s not all homosexuality is about, and 2) he wasn’t even remotely ready for the sex talk. Of course at that time, he wanted to be gay and marry his best friend Sam. Now he doesn’t want to marry anyone because kissing is gross!!!. |
there ya go, every child is different. With my child, the sex thing "would" have been an issue in second grade. It still would be, but he understands the whole issue of sex better in third grade. I "do" have to watch the things he reads and views. He does put things in a very sexual context. My older son, this book would not have affected in any way and I wouldn't have cared if he read it at any age. As a parent, i feel that I know what is best for them and when.
And really, I'll disagree with your definition of homosexuality and hetereosexuality being about marriage. I guess I'd prefer to wait until my kids are old enough to understand sexual preference. But I guess you're going to be a good mommy and say they can't have sex without marriage and go the absistence route with them while I'm discussing condoms usage.
|
|
|
|
|
camelia bedelia
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 2808
Location: God's Country
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 15:16 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
And really, I'll disagree with your definition of homosexuality and hetereosexuality being about marriage. I guess I'd prefer to wait until my kids are old enough to understand sexual preference. But I guess you're going to be a good mommy and say they can't have sex without marriage and go the absistence route with them while I'm discussing condoms usage. |
Oh, I didn't mean I define homosexuality/heterosexuality as being about marriage, I was just trying to put it in terms my 5 year old could understand. He didn't understand about sex, but he did have a very vague understanding that some people are just friends, and some people are more than that, as in married people (and boyfriend/girlfriend). Not sure what you mean by the "good mommy/abstinence" part of your response.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 16:44 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
Oh, I didn't mean I define homosexuality/heterosexuality as being about marriage, I was just trying to put it in terms my 5 year old could understand. He didn't understand about sex, but he did have a very vague understanding that some people are just friends, and some people are more than that, as in married people (and boyfriend/girlfriend). Not sure what you mean by the "good mommy/abstinence" part of your response. |
I guess it doesn't really matter, anyway. Many people think homosexuality is wrong and don't feel that they want their young children reading about it at 5 years old. I think their feelings should have as much respect (and I'm not saying it's a right or wrong view) as those that strongly push for their children learning about it early. Those parents can and find those books for their children on purpose. I do think the book was written to push an agenda and the children's section is not it, in my opinion. I don't want my 5-7 year reading about Bill bringing pregnant Jane to the clinic either because they aren't ready to be parents either.
I think putting such books in a children's section is forcing ideas into the small minds that it is "okay". I'm guessing there are many parents out there that homosexuality is not okay and they don't want their child reading a book that show that it is, just like a homosexual parent would not like their child reading material that shows that it isn't okay. Mutual respect puts the decision into the hands of the parent.
|
|
|
|
|
camelia bedelia
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 15 May 2002
Posts: 2808
Location: God's Country
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/13/05 - 18:11 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
I guess it doesn't really matter, anyway. Many people think homosexuality is wrong and don't feel that they want their young children reading about it at 5 years old. I think their feelings should have as much respect (and I'm not saying it's a right or wrong view) as those that strongly push for their children learning about it early. Those parents can and find those books for their children on purpose. I do think the book was written to push an agenda and the children's section is not it, in my opinion. I don't want my 5-7 year reading about Bill bringing pregnant Jane to the clinic either because they aren't ready to be parents either.
I think putting such books in a children's section is forcing ideas into the small minds that it is "okay". I'm guessing there are many parents out there that homosexuality is not okay and they don't want their child reading a book that show that it is, just like a homosexual parent would not like their child reading material that shows that it isn't okay. Mutual respect puts the decision into the hands of the parent. |
You say forcing ideas that it's okay, I say opening their minds that it's okay. I guess it is how you look at it.
I'm not adamant that the book has to be in the children's section, though I do think the legislature's attempt to ban it is outrageous. I also think relegating the book to the top shelf is a bit absurd. There are a lot of things I might not agree with in the library - the children's Bible that says "Only those that believe in Him shall be enter Heaven" comes to mind. That is certainly not something I want my child to believe. I suppose I could file a complaint and demand it be moved to a more appropriate location. Or I could be aware of what my children are reading and use it as an opportunity for discussion and a chance to let them know that there are all kinds of different people in this world with all kinds of different beliefs. I don't understand why that is so scarey.
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/14/05 - 16:05 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
You say forcing ideas that it's okay, I say opening their minds that it's okay. I guess it is how you look at it.
I'm not adamant that the book has to be in the children's section, though I do think the legislature's attempt to ban it is outrageous. I also think relegating the book to the top shelf is a bit absurd. There are a lot of things I might not agree with in the library - the children's Bible that says "Only those that believe in Him shall be enter Heaven" comes to mind. That is certainly not something I want my child to believe. I suppose I could file a complaint and demand it be moved to a more appropriate location. Or I could be aware of what my children are reading and use it as an opportunity for discussion and a chance to let them know that there are all kinds of different people in this world with all kinds of different beliefs. I don't understand why that is so scarey. |
I agree with you on the ban. I do disagree about placement, I think placing this book and a Children's Bible on a higher shelf is the right thing to do. Should have been done right away before it becomes an us vs them thing like everything else. The book was written with that agenda in mind and should have dealt with when it came into the library on day one. Even the feeblest of minds could figure out that there would be a big problem when Junior brings this book up to mommy in the Bible belt and says "read me THIS book". The confusing part is whom stirred the pot first?????
|
|
|
|
|
keltic63
the kilted one
|
|
|
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 8574
Location: under the weather
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/14/05 - 23:10 Post subject:
| runaroundsue wrote: |
The book was written with that agenda in mind and should have dealt with when it came into the library on day one.
The confusing part is whom stirred the pot first????? |
do you know for sure that the book was written with the agenda in mind?
I look at it this way: if a book like that had existed and caused people to talk about things 30 years ago, I might not be in the situation I am in today. My life would have been very different. So perhaps it wasn't written with the idea of "promoting" the agenda (who's in charge of the agenda anyway? I haven't gotten the latest newsletter with my particular assignment.) Perhaps it was written with the idea of saying "here's why you feel so different than everybody else. and while there aren't many of you, there are others. you deserve to be happy too."
|
|
|
|
|
runaroundsue
Member
|
|
|
Joined: 18 Sep 2002
Posts: 6629
Location: supporting GREENer pastures
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/15/05 - 12:21 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
do you know for sure that the book was written with the agenda in mind?
I look at it this way: if a book like that had existed and caused people to talk about things 30 years ago, I might not be in the situation I am in today. My life would have been very different. So perhaps it wasn't written with the idea of "promoting" the agenda (who's in charge of the agenda anyway? I haven't gotten the latest newsletter with my particular assignment.) Perhaps it was written with the idea of saying "here's why you feel so different than everybody else. and while there aren't many of you, there are others. you deserve to be happy too." |
great....you needed to find this book on your own at 5?????? I'm perusing books right now for my 11 y/o that is different. I'm finding them in the parenting section and I will decide how much he "needs" to know that he is "different". I think at 5 he needed to know that mom and dad loves him. I'm not going to debate this anymore, my point is that the book should be available, not accessible to this age on their own without parental guidance. And yes I do believe that the book was written with an agenda. However, I think that's how things get done. I'm all for tolerance, whether you think homosexuality is right or wrong, that is NOT my issue....but go ahead and argue it. Yeah, I really think your whole life would have changed if you saw this book at 5......not. 8 or 9.....hmmmmm
|
|
|
|
|
Noley
AZhat
|
|
|
Joined: 16 Aug 2003
Posts: 10494
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/15/05 - 12:23 Post subject:
| Happy2tri wrote: | hope they got "those" books out of there in time, you all know if you read, or even walk by such a book discussing the evil, sin-ridden, negatively impacting all homosexuals you, your children, or your neighbor will become one of them!!!
It would be awful to keep these books there so that their could be conversations/discussions/differing points of view that the world is made up of a multiple of different folks all of whom have families, are loved, and make the world what it is.
 |
My sentiments exactly.
I don't think a book is going to sway my children on who they are going to be, how they're going to live, and what they're going to think. Hopefully they'll see that there is a mix of all sorts of people out there and you have to respect the choices other people make or lifestyles other people have.
Example of my cul-de-sak.
Next door: Brits living here abroad
The next two houses: Families from Palestine. Brothers who married women in arranged marriages. Muslum. Strict rules that women have to follow. All girls at puberty will be covered to stay "modest"
One more house: Two homosexual men. Very nice. Friendly. Have offered to help in any kind of way if ever needed..."If you ever need anything..." I guess they have changed flat tires and helped the kids with their bikes before.
Anyway, my children know about all of these people, their lifestyles, customs...as much as they can understand. I know they don't understand what homosexuality is (due to not understanding the full details of sex), but they do "get" that the two men live together. My kids just cannot get past the red walls that you can see through the window and that's it.
My Nole 1 will grow up understanding that there are different types of people and take from that anyway she wants.
My Nole 2 will do the same.
My Nole 3 will follow suit as his sisters.
I don't think a book will sway them to be anything different than what they're meant to be...catholic, not catholic...heterosexual, homosexual...athletic, not athletic...etc. I would not have a problem with it in the children's section at all.
|
|
|
|
|
The Race Walker
Newbie
|
|
|
Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Santa Monica, CA
|
| Back to top
|
|
Posted: 05/15/05 - 13:04 Post subject:
| robp wrote: | | Maybe I'm in the minority here but the subject of homosexuality doesn't need to be in books geared towards 5 to 7 yr old kids. |
Really? What about all those 5 -7 year olds with homosexual parents? Bet they're real confused and feel real different from other kids...
Basically, kids are curious and very observant. Homosexuality is a lot more out-in-the-open now. Better to introduce kids to the concept early on and let them make their own decisions about it as they grow up.
|
|
|
|
| |
All times are GMT - 4 Hours
|
|
|
