Ball State University Cuts Cross Country and Track
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copteacher
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 Posted: 07/17/03 - 13:40 Post subject:
| Cappy wrote: | | I believe Penn State has a Linebacker position scholarship position that is alumni funded. |
plus their football revenue more than covers most of the atheletic budget hands down.
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flarunner
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 13:47 Post subject: Re: Ball State University Cuts Cross Country and Track
| kobyj wrote: | | ...and going somewhere else instead this fall... |
Hmmm...maybe that really good school about 1.5 hours south of Indpls. 
Elkid, you hit the topic right on the head. Schools should be for education, but, because they are a business these types of things happen. And that's a whole 'nother can o' worms.
I will disagree with one comment though, "If it's not profitable aka supporting itself, the sport should be cut, proportionally according to the number of male to female students, and the funds reallocated."
The only sport which actually makes money in higher education is football. Occasionally, men's basketball turns a profit, but none of the other sports, whether men's or women's actually make a profit.
As for what Title IX really is, the following website should help answer some questions, and (hopefully) put to rest some of the myths. Remember, folks, the term is equity not equality. There is a difference.
| The answer to the question How is Title IX applied to athletics? wrote: |
Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play; |
FAQ's from the NCAA on Title IX
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spongebob
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 13:49 Post subject:
| Quote: | | Anyone picking colleges more on athletic programs than academic ones has no business being in college in the first place. Even if you need the athletic scholarship to attend the school. |
That isn't entirely true.
Some people have awesome grades and test scores, but no money. An athletic scholarship is the only way for them to go to college. Which means they have to pick their school by which one(s) will give them financial aid if they play a sport.
The better the athletic program, the more likely they would be able to stick around all 4 years and earn a degree.
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flarunner
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 13:57 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | | Quote: | | Anyone picking colleges more on athletic programs than academic ones has no business being in college in the first place. Even if you need the athletic scholarship to attend the school. |
That isn't entirely true.
Some people have awesome grades and test scores, but no money. An athletic scholarship is the only way for them to go to college. Which means they have to pick their school by which one(s) will give them financial aid if they play a sport.
The better the athletic program, the more likely they would be able to stick around all 4 years and earn a degree. |
Or leave after two years to enter the draft.  But you're right.
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spongebob
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:07 Post subject:
| flarunner wrote: |
Or leave after two years to enter the draft. But you're right. |
That is mostly true for Super Star atheletes at big time schools.
The second string linebacker or the 2 kids at the end of the bench on the basketball team are still superior athletes, but they often have really tough majors and good grades.
The press doesn't cover the story when the guy who had a 7 ppg career average gets his Mechanical Engineering degree. This happens far more often than when kids leave early to go pro.
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cherylpf
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:07 Post subject: Re: Ball State University Cuts Cross Country and Track
| flarunner wrote: | As for what Title IX really is, the following website should help answer some questions, and (hopefully) put to rest some of the myths. Remember, folks, the term is equity not equality. There is a difference.
| The answer to the question How is Title IX applied to athletics? wrote: |
Participation: Title IX requires that women and men be provided equitable opportunities to participate in sports. Title IX does not require institutions to offer identical sports but an equal opportunity to play; |
FAQ's from the NCAA on Title IX |
Thanks for the link, I was looking for basically that. Just out of curiosity on my part, do you know if the same basic rules apply at the high school level?
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cherylpf
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:13 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | | flarunner wrote: |
Or leave after two years to enter the draft. But you're right. |
That is mostly true for Super Star atheletes at big time schools.
The second string linebacker or the 2 kids at the end of the bench on the basketball team are still superior athletes, but they often have really tough majors and good grades.
The press doesn't cover the story when the guy who had a 7 ppg career average gets his Mechanical Engineering degree. This happens far more often than when kids leave early to go pro. |
Yes, this is true, I had friends I graduated with in this situation. And you have to go where there is more money because there are (or were when I was in school) regulations against collegiate athletes working? or something?
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elkid
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:15 Post subject:
| flarunner wrote: | I will disagree with one comment though, "If it's not profitable aka supporting itself, the sport should be cut, proportionally according to the number of male to female students, and the funds reallocated."
The only sport which actually makes money in higher education is football. Occasionally, men's basketball turns a profit, but none of the other sports, whether men's or women's actually make a profit. |
Let me clarify. I didn't mean to say cut one sport to fund another. What I meant was if the sport isn't making money and the school needs money for other things, for something like ... I don't know ... an academic program, by all means, cut the sports and give to the mind. And proportionally, as in don't cut all female sports and save the male sports when the student gender ratio is relatively equal.
Yes, primarily football & b'ball make money. They're also usually self-funded by various sources external to the collegiate budget including alumni, so that's why I excluded them earlier as debating that point has no relevancy to this particular argument.
| Runner X wrote: | | Some people have awesome grades and test scores, but no money. An athletic scholarship is the only way for them to go to college. Which means they have to pick their school by which one(s) will give them financial aid if they play a sport. |
That's what academic scholarships are for. Sometimes, yes, you go partial academic, partial athletic, but I don't buy your argument that if you have "awesome grades and test scores" you won't get academic money.
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spongebob
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:35 Post subject:
| elkid wrote: |
I don't buy your argument that if you have "awesome grades and test scores" you won't get academic money. |
In that case, you have a simplistic view of the financial aid process.
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AlaninTX
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:38 Post subject:
I am going with 7, and considering an over and under on a lock.
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purple hayes
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 14:39 Post subject:
| AlaninTX wrote: | | I am going with 7, and considering an over and under on a lock. |
I'm willing to take bribes. 
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elkid
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 15:00 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | | elkid wrote: |
I don't buy your argument that if you have "awesome grades and test scores" you won't get academic money. |
In that case, you have a simplistic view of the financial aid process. |
Actually, I worked the financial aid system to fund my college education, and then worked at the financial aid office for two years to support it, so I have a little insight into the subject. Colleges look at more than "awesome grades and test scores" when considering an applicant. Community involvement, work history, leadership roles, school activities, and yes, even sports, are all serious criteria a college uses.
A college has only x number of dollars at its disposal. So yes, sometimes a 3.9 GPA salutorian who played 4 years of varsity baseball while being president of their class will not get the scholarship that goes to a 4.2 GPA valedictorian who was head of four academic clubs. But that 4.2 GPA dude may not the scholarship over a 4.0 GPA president of honor society who taught Sunday school, and volunteered twice a week at a soup kitchen, either. It's the total package, and sometimes the sum of the parts is stronger than the whole.
Colleges use financial need, fair or not, when dividing up their grant and scholarship money pools. It is true that you need financial aid you may not get the academic money from a particular institution, but you will find one that will give you the money, often within the same academic tier.
I myself would've gone Ivy League had it not been for the fact that I had to fund my education myself. I instead chose a sub-Ivy with a great reputation who gave me half my money based on my academic & social track record, a work study stipend, and authorized the maximum student loan possible based on my "awesome grades and test scores". Did it hurt that I was deserving of Ivy League but no money? Yes. But I also knew that had I worked harder to make my 3.95 average higher, I would've had more leverage during the selection process.
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spongebob
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 15:22 Post subject:
| elkid wrote: | | A whole bunch of stuff |
Exactly.
When you factor in all of the things that schools consider, some very intelligent kids' best option will be via an athletic scholarship. Their quality academic background combined with their athletic ability give them an edge. When the athletic side gives them more leverage, then they would choose a school based on the athletic program over academics.
Earlier, you had said those kids don't belong in college. I say they do.
A kid may qualify for and want to attend Harvard, but if the choice comes down to Ball State and Michigan Tech letting them go for free vs having to find another way to pay for the Ivy league school, then I don't see why someone should say they don't belong in college.
And this has nothing to do with Title IX.
But this does:
http://www.michiganrunner.com/0901/RUNSHRT.html
I was at a running clinic with Lisa Rainsberger aka the last US female to win Boston.
Title IX is what got her into the University of Michigan. Her career at Michigan got her both a degree and sent her off to become an international elite runner.
At the clinic, she said she definitely believes strongly in what Title IX does for female athletes. However, she also said that many univesities and school systems are making Title IX decisions the wrong way.
She is on some committee now that is trying to come up with better ways for schools to handle Title IX without always cutting the smaller tier athletic programs (swimming, cross country, etc).
If Title IX were involved, Ball State would make a great example of the concerns she expressed. The rules for gender equity end up hurting both male and female athletes in the smaller sports. The running related ones often get cut first, and they are usually one of the least expensive programs to have.
She thinks there is a way to have schools keep their Title IX status without wiping out the wrestling, cc, and field hockey teams.
I have to agree with her. The rule is needed, but there needs to be a better way to implement it. And she is helping to do that.
Last edited by spongebob on 07/17/03 - 15:48; edited 1 time in total
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jrjo
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 15:40 Post subject:
I don't know how many of you ran on a collegiate cross-country team. I did. And it was one cheapo sport. Our coach was a staff member and I'd guess she likely got a couple thousand additional to coach us. We had one (this was Division II) scholarship runner, which I think was another couple thousand a year. We travelled within 200 miles for a half dozen meets, so figure the cost of a bus there. For regionals we actually got lodging at the absolute worst motel in town. All in all, if the program costed more the 5-grand I'd be floored.
Ball State isn't any different I imagine. So dropping the program isn't the cost savings. Where the savings is that no big alumni contributors were former cross country runners. I'd bet dollars to donuts any sport with some big alumni donors wouldn't get cut.
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elkid
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Posted: 07/17/03 - 15:42 Post subject:
| Runner X wrote: | When you factor in all of the things that schools consider, some very intelligent kids' best option will be via an athletic scholarship. Their quality academic background combined with their athletic ability give them an edge. When the athletic side gives them more leverage, then they would choose a school based on the athletic program over academics.
Earlier, you had said those kids don't belong in college. I say they do. .... A kid may qualify for and want to attend Harvard, but if the choice comes down to Ball State and Michigan Tech letting them go for free vs having to find another way to pay for the Ivy league school, then I don't see why someone should say they don't belong in college. |
I didn't say that. I said if a kid chooses a school based on athletics OVER academics, they don't belong in college. I stand behind that.
As to your second point, that's their choice, and unfortunately, one that must often be made. And exactly what I said. I have no problems with academically capable kids getting scholarships, academic or athletic. I do have a problem with athletic kids getting scholarships over more qualified, academically stronger candidates, and that happens all the time.
| Runner X wrote: | | And this has nothing to do with Title IX. |
Agreed. Looks like they're using it as a blanket to cover up political decisions.
I for one think Title IX is bullsh!t, just like affirmative action. It's reverse discrimination geared towards assuaging the guilt the country feels over its historical injustices towards women and minorities. I would be offended if, like your friend Lisa, I got into a college based on my gender, just as I would be equally offended if I were less qualified for a job and got it over a more qualified male solely because I'm a woman. I don't feel that people today should have to suffer for the mistakes of their ancestors, and a lot of other people who would benefit from Title IX and AA feel the same.
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