Are you one of the chosen?
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GaRebelRunner
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 Posted: 08/03/06 - 07:25 Post subject: Are you one of the chosen?
I was born and raised a Southern Baptist. One of the issues I always struggled with is the the concept of predestination and/or being "chosen" to follow Christ as opposed to the individual choosing to follow Christ.
I have a very conservative Southern Baptist working in my office and we discuss Baptist doctrines quite a bit. From my point, if you can only come to Christ if you are "chosen" and everything is preordained, the purpose of life is...? In my way of thinking everything is already decided for you and we are simply going through the motions.
On the other hand there are Bible scriptures that will back up her (and her particular Church's) position. I find the discussions interesting because I can relate to them as I went through my struggles with the SBC. But I really just don't see the purpose of humans if everything is already preordained. God may so love the world, but reality is we are nothing but toys if preordination is true, at least IMHO.
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andydp
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 07:52 Post subject:
The early Calvinists, who later becamed the Pilgrims we are familiar with, were believers in "pre destination". Simply put, you are determined at birth to be a sinner, a saint or anything in between. Failure and poverty were seen as signs of God's displeasure. Conversely, success was seen as a sign of God's pleasure and the fact you were "more blessed" than the others.
Understandably, this argument and philosophy lost a lot of its appeal since, as you say, what's the sense of doing anything about it ?
My early Catholic upbringing taught me that while God may know what will eventually happen to us - its strictly our choice as to how we get there.
This argument will continue for as long as there are people who think. The discussion you're having with a co worker is just one more sign of God's diversity in action.
You can find Bible verses to back up any position you want, such as support of slavery prior to the Civil War, or hatred of Jews, or banning of music in church.
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robp
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 08:21 Post subject:
I was obviously pre-determined to be a saint. I'm still waiting for my official certificate in the mail.
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 09:44 Post subject:
The explanation of pre-destination (from a Calvinist perspective) that I heard in college was that all are pre-destined for for salvation or...not. But we humans do not know who is predestined so that we should live our lives as if we are part of the elect.
In that sense, those who fall away were never elect to begin with. But, because it is such an internal thing about your heart and what you truly believe, nobody can say what is truly in the heart of another or what happens years later in their lives, there is no way to say.
We also do not know the number of our days, so if I choose to live my life as I see fit with no attention paid to Christ because I think that if I come to believe and follow Christ in 20 years I am still elect...and I could be...but what if I die tomorrow? It will be too late because I never knew Christ.
Does that make sense?
My argument against pre-determination when I was at Northwestern was that the school also taught to "know" Christ and to have a "personal relationship" with Christ. To me, this assumes that I have a say in the matter and the theoretical concept of pre-determination says that I don't. If I have to "Accept" Christ in my life then I am acting and I could choose another path.
My other problem with it is the idea of those who fall away from Christ and belief. Well, so what happens if I truly believed and died young? I'm young, I'm elect because I truly follow Christ, so I go to heaven. Well, what if I have faith in Christ but something happens that shakes my faith and that for years I actively deny Christ? So, I was elect because if I died before my faith was broken I would go to heaven, but if I died after my faith broke I would not and that is proof that I'm not elect?
How does that work? There is the chance that I could die at any point in my life and only what happens at that point determines whether I was "really one of the elect"?
The only way that I was able to wrap my mind around this concept is that I altered my view of election. Maybe it is something like this:
God, who is above and outside time, knows who will choose Him and who will deny Him. So, God "chooses" or "elects" those who will choose him. It gives us the free choice we think we have, but gives God the election because we are elect before birth but we also have to work it out for ourselves on Earth and while there is the chance that we could fall away God knows that we will or will not.
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Sahara
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 10:39 Post subject:
I was taught that it is only by the grace of God that any of us have faith and therefore salvation. With that thinking, it follows that faith/salvation cannot be earned (again learned in ALC & ELCA Lutheran church). Many Christians (and pseudo-Christians) conduct their life for the precise reason of being saved (go to heaven or saved from hell*). It seems to me that the point of doing so is moot.
*a tangent...
this prompts me to think about what their motivation is... is it to be saved... or is it to avoid hell? I think that there is a difference.
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bburgoyne26
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 19:49 Post subject: Re: Are you one of the chosen?
| GaRebelRunner wrote: | I was born and raised a Southern Baptist. One of the issues I always struggled with is the the concept of predestination and/or being "chosen" to follow Christ as opposed to the individual choosing to follow Christ.
I have a very conservative Southern Baptist working in my office and we discuss Baptist doctrines quite a bit. From my point, if you can only come to Christ if you are "chosen" and everything is preordained, the purpose of life is...? In my way of thinking everything is already decided for you and we are simply going through the motions.
On the other hand there are Bible scriptures that will back up her (and her particular Church's) position. I find the discussions interesting because I can relate to them as I went through my struggles with the SBC. But I really just don't see the purpose of humans if everything is already preordained. God may so love the world, but reality is we are nothing but toys if preordination is true, at least IMHO. |
I understand that some Baptists have a Calvinistic leaning, but most lately are the whole Arminian born again sinner's prayer altar call type theology....
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keltic63
the kilted one
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 21:16 Post subject:
| Sahara wrote: | I was taught that it is only by the grace of God that any of us have faith and therefore salvation. With that thinking, it follows that faith/salvation cannot be earned (again learned in ALC & ELCA Lutheran church). Many Christians (and pseudo-Christians) conduct their life for the precise reason of being saved (go to heaven or saved from hell*). It seems to me that the point of doing so is moot.
*a tangent...
this prompts me to think about what their motivation is... is it to be saved... or is it to avoid hell? I think that there is a difference. |
some fundagelicals make it seem like a heavenly lottery "step right up folks, get your ticket to heaven here!"
I've been talking online with some pretty radical folks who make it sound like you've got to do everything just right or you don't get in to heaven. obedience is key to them! of course, they are deeply concerned about me and my behavior  it's very discouraging because they live in constant fear of not only their own sin, but that of other individuals as well. I'm free from that! Thank God!
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bburgoyne26
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Posted: 08/03/06 - 21:49 Post subject:
| Sahara wrote: | I was taught that it is only by the grace of God that any of us have faith and therefore salvation. With that thinking, it follows that faith/salvation cannot be earned (again learned in ALC & ELCA Lutheran church).
. |
same here......
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blue
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Posted: 08/04/06 - 01:06 Post subject:
lets think about this for a minute -
if everything is predetermined, we can't do anything about it. but maybe everything we do is exactly what we were/are supposed to - despite what we think as choosing our own path.
additionally, why would anyone be predisposed to evil and 'not getting in' to heaven?
given that no one really knows what happens when we die, i fail to see how any person could pretend to know what we need to do to achieve a certain status post-life (re: in death).
people would have to formulate their own opinions of what is good and bad, and decide based on those ideas, what should warrant reward (heaven) or punishment (etc).
since we came up with those ideas, ie. they are human concepts - how can we then say that what we consider right and wrong to be the measuring stick to which we're all held? especially when many different religions & cultures have differing views of right and wrong.
so i suppose it's simply not possible for us to have predetermined paths in life for two reasons -
first: we have set our own standards (with many differing takes on it), and really have no authority on the matter of post-death happenings
second: why would God create bad people, and then not forgive them for what he created? if i'm predisposed to doing terrible things, how could i possibly be held accountable for that.
unless god is just a jerk - at which point he can decide whatever he wants and for all we know all the good people are going to hell. /just sayin.
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andydp
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Posted: 08/04/06 - 10:02 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | I've been talking online with some pretty radical folks who make it sound like you've got to do everything just right or you don't get in to heaven. obedience is key to them! of course, they are deeply concerned about me and my behavior it's very discouraging because they live in constant fear of not only their own sin, but that of other individuals as well. I'm free from that! Thank God! |
Help me out on this: Isn't there a passage in one of the Gospels where Jesus talks about people just "going through the motions" - i.e. doing everything according to the book - but not really meaning any of it ?
Thirty years ago, prior to Vativan II the Catholic chuch was tied up in ritual and appearances. All rites were done according to a set formula, altar boys worked a certain way, the mass was in a strictly set order and woe to the Priest that varied it. In other words the outward signs of the Mass took precedence over the real meaning of the mass.
Isn't there a danger that the outward signs of any religion will take over and the real meaning of religion and Jesus' message will be overshadowed by adherence to a set order of things ?
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Phar lap
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Posted: 08/04/06 - 17:50 Post subject: Some who have been Chosen
...... MAGGIE THE DOG........
Saint Maggie of the Compassionate Gaze. Canonised for her work among the urban depressed and miracles associated with her healing eyes.
Saint Maggie was never known to speak in her entire life.
........ CELTIC THE CANARY.......
The most Blessed Celtic the Innocent of Wobegon. Celtic the gasworks canary was beatified for his devotion to liturgical and sacred music, in spite of being cruelly incarcerated for life.
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Phar lap
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Posted: 08/04/06 - 17:53 Post subject:
Sorry!!! meant to post this under a new title.
'Those who have been Chosen'
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 08/04/06 - 21:53 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | I've been talking online with some pretty radical folks who make it sound like you've got to do everything just right or you don't get in to heaven. obedience is key to them! of course, they are deeply concerned about me and my behavior it's very discouraging because they live in constant fear of not only their own sin, but that of other individuals as well. I'm free from that! Thank God! |
Help me out on this: Isn't there a passage in one of the Gospels where Jesus talks about people just "going through the motions" - i.e. doing everything according to the book - but not really meaning any of it ?
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Not sure if it is in the Gospels or if it is one of Paul's letters, but there is something about being lukewarm. That it is better to be hot in your belief or cold in your disbelief than to be lukewarm.
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 08/05/06 - 07:22 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | Not sure if it is in the Gospels or if it is one of Paul's letters, but there is something about being lukewarm. That it is better to be hot in your belief or cold in your disbelief than to be lukewarm. |
But wouldn't this be what gets religious fundamentalists into wars or the support thereof?
Because of my religious upbringing I enjoy talking about religion and various beliefs. While I may disagree with Jimmy Swaggert I can see where he is coming from. The problem comes when we divide into groups. Whether progressive or conservative Southern Baptist, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish or even Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson we do well individually and even agree to disagree. But when we get into groups and begin making laws based on those groups that we get ourselves into friction.
Which comes back around to the hot or cold vs lukewarm. It is the hot believers that will demand others conform or pay the consequences whether those consequences come from civil law or military action to make one believe in the hot stuff. I would definitely put myself in the "lukewarm" camp. I do care, but not enough to force my beliefs on anyone else through secular law.
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keltic63
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Posted: 08/05/06 - 09:35 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | andydp wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | I've been talking online with some pretty radical folks who make it sound like you've got to do everything just right or you don't get in to heaven. obedience is key to them! of course, they are deeply concerned about me and my behavior it's very discouraging because they live in constant fear of not only their own sin, but that of other individuals as well. I'm free from that! Thank God! |
Help me out on this: Isn't there a passage in one of the Gospels where Jesus talks about people just "going through the motions" - i.e. doing everything according to the book - but not really meaning any of it ?
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Not sure if it is in the Gospels or if it is one of Paul's letters, but there is something about being lukewarm. That it is better to be hot in your belief or cold in your disbelief than to be lukewarm. |
this may be some of what andy is referring to: It's very much like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus' time. It's important to be right, and it's important to "obey" the law, and as in Matthew 23:4 they tie up heavy loads, impossible to bear and impose them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing, or able, to lift those same burdens. ie, they talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Interestingly enough, these people place a very high importance on obedience, and expect others to meet their standard of it (not God's) in order to get into heaven.
Pug, your reference to being lukewarm is found in Revelation 3:16 God refers to a "church" or a group of christians as being neither hot or cold as far as their works are concerned and so God is disgusted by their apathy.
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