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brie k
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 Posted: 04/19/05 - 07:52 Post subject: Another religious paper, welcome any thoughts...
I'm writing my final paper for Theology this week. It's entitled, "Who Killed Jesus and Why?" Another opinion piece backed up by Scripture and other sources.
I have 4 people/categories to discuss: Caiaphus (and may turn this into 'The Jews' since he was the J. High Priest -- would give me an opportunity to use sources that are against the all-encompassing view that the Jews killed Jesus); Pontius Pilate (maybe I should turn this into 'the Romans'); Jesus himself; and Mankind (saying that because of man's sinful nature, we in effect are all responsible for his death.)
I bought my very first study Bible yesterday to help aid me in writing this paper, (and to read at other times) The Learning Bible: Contemporary English Version and also The New Strong's Concise Concordance of the Bible. I chose this particular Bible because it has a lot of information on politics, religions, etc. of that time, which I think will better help me to understand just what was going on while Jesus was alive.
Anyhoo, if you would like to post here or PM me about points you think should be included in my paper, or just share your thoughts, that would be great.
Thanks!
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copteacher
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 08:21 Post subject:
no race or ethnic baiting her folks I will be keeping a close eye on this one.
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 08:42 Post subject:
were you given just those 4 categories? are you limited to that?
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brie k
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 08:44 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | were you given just those 4 categories? are you limited to that? |
No, these were the ones I thought were primary. Who would you include? And can I find material on it/them? Remember, I know squat. I need valid references (and anything from the Catholic church is very useful).
Thanks!
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 08:49 Post subject:
| brie k wrote: |
No, these were the ones I thought were primary. Who would you include? And can I find material on it/them? Remember, I know squat. I need valid references (and anything from the Catholic church is very useful).
Thanks! |
can you discuss all of those options and settle on your strongest evidence? does it have to agree with catholic teachings? I'd think that even in a catholic university, there should be room for a well-written paper that disagrees with church doctrine; ie you should be able to get a good grade, even if you write something that is not the official teaching of the church.
That said, one more option that you might explore is the concept that no one "person" or "group" killed Jesus. You could argue that Jesus' message was so radical, so completely opposed to the cultures of the Jews as well as the Romans, that the only logical outcome of his ministry was his own death. I'll see if I can dig up some info on that.
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brie k
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 08:56 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
can you discuss all of those options and settle on your strongest evidence? does it have to agree with catholic teachings? I'd think that even in a catholic university, there should be room for a well-written paper that disagrees with church doctrine; ie you should be able to get a good grade, even if you write something that is not the official teaching of the church.
That said, one more option that you might explore is the concept that no one "person" or "group" killed Jesus. You could argue that Jesus' message was so radical, so completely opposed to the cultures of the Jews as well as the Romans, that the only logical outcome of his ministry was his own death. I'll see if I can dig up some info on that. |
That is a very interesting view, and yes, I could use that. And no, anything I write does not have to be from the Catholic pov, it just helps because my professor is a Sister. The last paper I wrote, where I said that Jesus would not be against capital punishment--that went against the Catholic teachings, and I received an A-. So not necessary, but good to cite even if they have a differing pov because that means I've done some research.
I think I have to have at least 8 sources for this paper. That's the hard part, finding credible sources.
Thank you for your help!
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 09:01 Post subject:
| brie k wrote: |
That is a very interesting view, and yes, I could use that. And no, anything I write does not have to be from the Catholic pov, it just helps because my professor is a Sister. The last paper I wrote, where I said that Jesus would not be against capital punishment--that went against the Catholic teachings, and I received an A-. So not necessary, but good to cite even if they have a differing pov because that means I've done some research.
I think I have to have at least 8 sources for this paper. That's the hard part, finding credible sources.
Thank you for your help! |
this pov I'm offering negates the idea of "Substitutionary Atonement" Many people believe that Jesus died to "pay a debt" for our sin. I think (but won't say for sure) that this is the view of the Catholic church. If Christ paid a debt, to whom did He (or God) pay it? And if the answer to that is Satan, does that mean that God is not powerful enough to have conquered Satan? Does God really have to pay Satan in order to win salvation for us? Could Satan have that kind of power, which would then appear to be greater than God's power?
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brie k
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 09:27 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
this pov I'm offering negates the idea of "Substitutionary Atonement" Many people believe that Jesus died to "pay a debt" for our sin. I think (but won't say for sure) that this is the view of the Catholic church. If Christ paid a debt, to whom did He (or God) pay it? And if the answer to that is Satan, does that mean that God is not powerful enough to have conquered Satan? Does God really have to pay Satan in order to win salvation for us? Could Satan have that kind of power, which would then appear to be greater than God's power? |
Ok. I cannot get my head around that one. I cannot believe that God was paying a debt to Satan through Jesus. I believe God is much more powerful than Satan, because only through God can you be redeemed and have eternal life, the Good Eternal. I suppose if you follow Satan you will have eternal life, but in the fire and brimstone way, and that doesn't really appeal to me.
Satan is powerful. But not God powerful.
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TOsteve
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 10:19 Post subject:
| brie k wrote: |
Ok. I cannot get my head around that one. I cannot believe that God was paying a debt to Satan through Jesus. I believe God is much more powerful than Satan, because only through God can you be redeemed and have eternal life, the Good Eternal. I suppose if you follow Satan you will have eternal life, but in the fire and brimstone way, and that doesn't really appeal to me.
Satan is powerful. But not God powerful. |
My understanding is that God was paying a debt that humanity owed to Him by sacrificing His son. This shows us the very nature of God who is full of grace and love for His creation.
I think that when it comes right down to it - it was the will of God for Christ to die, this was His sacrifice that He made for us. He used the social, political and religious climate that mankind existed in to see His will worked out to its completion. In that, it highlighted how far we (God's people) had fallen away from Him in that most did not even recognize Him when he came in our midst - even to the point that we were willing to kill Him.
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keltic63
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 10:22 Post subject:
| TOsteve wrote: |
My understanding is that God was paying a debt that humanity owed to Him by sacrificing His son. This shows us the very nature of God who is full of grace and love for His creation.
I think that when it comes right down to it - it was the will of God for Christ to die, this was His sacrifice that He made for us. He used the social, political and religious climate that mankind existed in to see His will worked out to its completion. In that, it highlighted how far we (God's people) had fallen away from Him in that most did not even recognize Him when he came in our midst - even to the point that we were willing to kill Him. |
just for the sake of discussion: God paid himself? (herself, for those who like inclusive language)
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TOsteve
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 10:46 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: |
just for the sake of discussion: God paid himself? (herself, for those who like inclusive language) |
Yes, in essence. Through the will of humankind, sin was introduced into creation. This separated all of creation from being able to have relationship with God because in God's presence sin in destroyed. Sin had become inextricably linked with creation.
God first gave his people a system of laws and sacrifice in order that they may enjoy a relationship with him. But humankind was unable to uphold their end of this covenant. God in His grace, despite the fact that humanity had rejected and hated Him, made a way for our very nature to be restored to complete holiness so that we may enjoy communion with Him the way he originally intended. He did this by sacrificing His son for us. We use analogies like 'paying a debt' to help wrap our finite minds around infinite concepts.
This is quite obviously the extremely condensed version of a discussion that would take too much time to have in a chat room (and while I'm supposed to be working  ).
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 11:44 Post subject:
The thing I struggle to understand is, horrible as thinking about the death of Jesus was, it had to go down like that in order for people to understand God's message, and the power and value of it. In other words, all the people who played a role in it did what they did b/c they were compelled to do it, as I see it. God moving through them, so to speak. My personal view is that those who helped make that happen, made us listen up, should be upheld, not reviled.
If looked at in this view, every single person who had contact with or was threatened by or made plans against or helped or impacted Jesus in any way paved the way for events to shake out as they did. Sort of like how you plan to go to the bank but it's getting late and you have to get your kids too and can't be late so when there's too much traffic due to construction between you and the bank and time is getting short, you forego the bank b/c construction was going on. The people who planned the construction to occur right then are impacting your life and choices.
So I vote for mankind, but not in the "died for all of us" way that 'mankind' usually implies.
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brie k
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 11:57 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | The thing I struggle to understand is, horrible as thinking about the death of Jesus was, it had to go down like that in order for people to understand God's message, and the power and value of it. In other words, all the people who played a role in it did what they did b/c they were compelled to do it, as I see it. God moving through them, so to speak. My personal view is that those who helped make that happen, made us listen up, should be upheld, not reviled.
If looked at in this view, every single person who had contact with or was threatened by or made plans against or helped or impacted Jesus in any way paved the way for events to shake out as they did. Sort of like how you plan to go to the bank but it's getting late and you have to get your kids too and can't be late so when there's too much traffic due to construction between you and the bank and time is getting short, you forego the bank b/c construction was going on. The people who planned the construction to occur right then are impacting your life and choices.
So I vote for mankind, but not in the "died for all of us" way that 'mankind' usually implies. |
And that is what I truly believe, that everyone is responsible for it. And really, in my mind, it goes back to way before Jesus even entered the picture. If man had not been so apt to sin, Jesus never would have had to die.
The other thing I think about is the fact that the Jews are the chosen people. So if Caiaphus and all the other elders had just let Jesus do his thing, and then Jesus didn't die by crucifixion, then only the Jewish people would be saved. Where does that lead the Gentiles?
Of course if they had accepted Jesus as the Savior, then perhaps we'd be in a different world and we'd all be redeemed, period. I don't know. All I know is that as awful as Jesus' death was, we are all able to go to heaven because of it, and for that I am truly grateful.
Disclaimer: I don't know enough about this subject, and really, it makes my head hurt to get all academic about it, and I realize that my opinions could be totally off base.
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BamBam
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 12:12 Post subject:
Could you just blame your ex husband?
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brie k
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Posted: 04/19/05 - 12:13 Post subject:
| BamBam wrote: | | Could you just blame your ex husband? |
I started to say something, then edited it because I realize I don't have an ex-husband.
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