An Evangelical Christian Comments
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copteacher
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Location: Teaching in the Halls of Justice
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 Posted: 07/31/06 - 19:40 Post subject:
| keltic63 wrote: | | copteacher wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | but, but, our enemies are "different" from us. it's ok to torture people who are "different" right? |
I dont know what this comment exactly means. |
It's sarcasm. Sorry you didn't recognize it. |
okay, sorry about that, just thought you might have been going somewhere with it.
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Pug
The Movie Geek
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Posted: 07/31/06 - 20:16 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: |
Again, I see people applying a double standard to the US, why does Islamic Terrorist get a free pass by so many people. If torturing our "different" people is wrong, then our enemies are just as wrong for killing/torturing us for being different. |
I've agreed with pretty much everything you have said so far, though I have no idea how history will judge this administration.
But I don't think we're (generic we) applying a double standard to the US because torture is wrong for us but not them. Torture is wrong for all. It also doesn't matter what they are doing. We, America, are held to a higher standard because we proclaim a higher standard. We claim to stand for something higher, and if we don't meet that higher standard that we claim, we should not say that we're still doing better than the terrorists, so we're alright...it means we're slipping and we shouldn't be.
If torture is necssary, so be it. But just flat out say that it is permissible torture to gain information and accept the consequences because the more we do it, the more it is okay for the other side to do so. It is either okay or it isn't, but no hedging that we're doing sometimes and we're not as horrible as the other side...
The Geneva Conventions, as I understand it, have nothing to do with what the other side is doing. If the terrorists or an actual army is torturing and killing our POWs, it still is not acceptable to do the same to the "enemy", the "differents", the "enemy combatants". No matter what they do, we are still held to a higher standard. This isn't something that peer pressure can explain.
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cherylpf
crazy cat lady
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Posted: 07/31/06 - 20:35 Post subject:
| bburgoyne26 wrote: | | Good one Andy....thanks, this will get passed along...... |
BB, please update us with a book review
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copteacher
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Posted: 07/31/06 - 22:07 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | copteacher wrote: |
Again, I see people applying a double standard to the US, why does Islamic Terrorist get a free pass by so many people. If torturing our "different" people is wrong, then our enemies are just as wrong for killing/torturing us for being different. |
I've agreed with pretty much everything you have said so far, though I have no idea how history will judge this administration.
But I don't think we're (generic we) applying a double standard to the US because torture is wrong for us but not them. Torture is wrong for all. It also doesn't matter what they are doing. We, America, are held to a higher standard because we proclaim a higher standard. We claim to stand for something higher, and if we don't meet that higher standard that we claim, we should not say that we're still doing better than the terrorists, so we're alright...it means we're slipping and we shouldn't be.
If torture is necssary, so be it. But just flat out say that it is permissible torture to gain information and accept the consequences because the more we do it, the more it is okay for the other side to do so. It is either okay or it isn't, but no hedging that we're doing sometimes and we're not as horrible as the other side...
The Geneva Conventions, as I understand it, have nothing to do with what the other side is doing. If the terrorists or an actual army is torturing and killing our POWs, it still is not acceptable to do the same to the "enemy", the "differents", the "enemy combatants". No matter what they do, we are still held to a higher standard. This isn't something that peer pressure can explain. |
the Geneva Protocols were designed for 20th century war, not 21st century. They need to be updated. I do not believe there will be a large scale war involving large amounts of ground troops ever again.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 07/31/06 - 22:48 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | but, but, our enemies are "different" from us. it's ok to torture people who are "different" right? |
I don't know. WWJD? |
if Jesus ran our country, would it be our country??? |
I don't think He would be too happy with the current administration. In fact I think he'd be pretty p!ssed at how His name has been used to justify a lot of the crap that's going on. |
I am sure Allah is pleased with the way his name is being used also. |
I'm sure he wouldn't.
Yes or no answer, joe - do you think Jesus would condone torture? Can you honestly ever see him giving the command to torture a human being?
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copteacher
Adjunct
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Posted: 07/31/06 - 23:40 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | copteacher wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | but, but, our enemies are "different" from us. it's ok to torture people who are "different" right? |
I don't know. WWJD? |
if Jesus ran our country, would it be our country??? |
I don't think He would be too happy with the current administration. In fact I think he'd be pretty p!ssed at how His name has been used to justify a lot of the crap that's going on. |
I am sure Allah is pleased with the way his name is being used also. |
I'm sure he wouldn't.
Yes or no answer, joe - do you think Jesus would condone torture? Can you honestly ever see him giving the command to torture a human being? |
No, he would have taken the beating himself, and he did.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 08/01/06 - 08:39 Post subject:
| copteacher wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | copteacher wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | but, but, our enemies are "different" from us. it's ok to torture people who are "different" right? |
I don't know. WWJD? |
if Jesus ran our country, would it be our country??? |
I don't think He would be too happy with the current administration. In fact I think he'd be pretty p!ssed at how His name has been used to justify a lot of the crap that's going on. |
I am sure Allah is pleased with the way his name is being used also. |
I'm sure he wouldn't.
Yes or no answer, joe - do you think Jesus would condone torture? Can you honestly ever see him giving the command to torture a human being? |
No, he would have taken the beating himself, and he did. |
So then, is condoning torture following Christ's example?
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copteacher
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Posted: 08/01/06 - 12:43 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: | | copteacher wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | copteacher wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | but, but, our enemies are "different" from us. it's ok to torture people who are "different" right? |
I don't know. WWJD? |
if Jesus ran our country, would it be our country??? |
I don't think He would be too happy with the current administration. In fact I think he'd be pretty p!ssed at how His name has been used to justify a lot of the crap that's going on. |
I am sure Allah is pleased with the way his name is being used also. |
I'm sure he wouldn't.
Yes or no answer, joe - do you think Jesus would condone torture? Can you honestly ever see him giving the command to torture a human being? |
No, he would have taken the beating himself, and he did. |
So then, is condoning torture following Christ's example? |
Our God is just, there are hundreds of examples in the Bible where violence and death are used. If the torture is for a greater good, I believe so. I would rather have a bad guy tortured and save hundreds then to not and have hundreds die.
It is the motive that is the sin or not not the action or self. It is like "you should not kill" taken literally it condemns war, yet Moses right after he received the 10 commandments had led the Israelites across the red sea and 1000's of people died at God's direct hand. Our God again is just.
It is not whether Jesus would condone it, it is what is the heart of the person committing the act. I am sure people who torture would stand before God with a clear conscience and God would not condemn them. Then again, only God knows the hearts and minds of people. I leave stuff like that up to him. I refuse to stand here and allow people to tell me that torture is wrong, and judge me when again the same standard is not applied to other people of other religions as well.
I think failing to act is a case of neglect and negligence and is a greater sin than the act itself.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 08/01/06 - 14:40 Post subject:
| jrjo wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | runaroundsue wrote: | | camelia bedelia wrote: | | keltic63 wrote: | | but, but, our enemies are "different" from us. it's ok to torture people who are "different" right? |
I don't know. WWJD? |
if Jesus ran our country, would it be our country??? |
I don't think He would be too happy with the current administration. In fact I think he'd be pretty p!ssed at how His name has been used to justify a lot of the crap that's going on. |
Do you have a link or quote from President Bush or a cabinet member that illustrates a White House decision "in the name of Jesus Christ"? |
I wasn't referring to only "crap" done by the administration, but by society in general in God's name. And Bush has been very clear of his political affiliations, and to pretend that it is not a factor in his presidency is absurd.
jrjo - do you think condoning torture is following Christ's example?
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andydp
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Posted: 08/01/06 - 15:49 Post subject:
| Pug wrote: | | copteacher wrote: |
Again, I see people applying a double standard to the US, why does Islamic Terrorist get a free pass by so many people. If torturing our "different" people is wrong, then our enemies are just as wrong for killing/torturing us for being different. |
I've agreed with pretty much everything you have said so far, though I have no idea how history will judge this administration.
But I don't think we're (generic we) applying a double standard to the US because torture is wrong for us but not them. Torture is wrong for all. It also doesn't matter what they are doing. We, America, are held to a higher standard because we proclaim a higher standard. We claim to stand for something higher, and if we don't meet that higher standard that we claim, we should not say that we're still doing better than the terrorists, so we're alright...it means we're slipping and we shouldn't be.
If torture is necssary, so be it. But just flat out say that it is permissible torture to gain information and accept the consequences because the more we do it, the more it is okay for the other side to do so. It is either okay or it isn't, but no hedging that we're doing sometimes and we're not as horrible as the other side...
The Geneva Conventions, as I understand it, have nothing to do with what the other side is doing. If the terrorists or an actual army is torturing and killing our POWs, it still is not acceptable to do the same to the "enemy", the "differents", the "enemy combatants". No matter what they do, we are still held to a higher standard. This isn't something that peer pressure can explain. |
I have to chime in here. For 28 years in the Army I was under the real possibility of being captured. Basically, I knew I would receive treatment under the Geneva Convention. Simply put, the convention says you treat your prisoners a certain way and the other guy will treat them a certain way.
I realize its a "gentleman's agreement", but the hope was if the country that captured me violated the agreement, moral indignation from the world would make them stop.
Our use of torture (either by us or by surrogates) has taken away the "moral high ground" the USA always had. [Side note: why is it "evil" for Nazis, Japanese, North Korea to torture, brainwash and generally do bad things to prisoners, but its OK for us ?]
If we did not torture our prisoners, rendition them to other countries and in general adhered to the convention, what sort of invective would we be hering from the world now ? If we had let in the Red Cross, UN Inspectors, and other international agencies, to Gitmo, what sort of ammunition would our enemies have had ? I can answer that: None, zilch, nada. We would have shown the world "hey these dirtbags attacked our country yet we will be treating them under convention rules".
It has to say and indicate something when all the JAG (Military Lawyer) Chiefs have spoken out against the tribunal hearings set up for our prisoners.
I realize I'm taking an unusual stance for a military person, but looking at the big picture its the better one. We could have had so much "ammunition" in this war had we gone about it just a bit differently.
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thegman
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Posted: 08/01/06 - 21:38 Post subject:
| andydp wrote: | | It has to say and indicate something when all the JAG (Military Lawyer) Chiefs have spoken out against the tribunal hearings set up for our prisoners. |
Can you give me a link or a cite on this? I'd be interested to read what they said.
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andydp
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Posted: 08/02/06 - 13:38 Post subject:
| thegman wrote: | | andydp wrote: | | It has to say and indicate something when all the JAG (Military Lawyer) Chiefs have spoken out against the tribunal hearings set up for our prisoners. |
Can you give me a link or a cite on this? I'd be interested to read what they said. |
All I can tell you in the recent hearings about what process to set up for the Guantamo hearings, the JAG officers were all asked to testify. They were ALL against the administration plans.
Yesterday, a letter from twenty former Army interrogators was read to the committee. Every one of them said torture is not necessary to protect the US. Of note is the fact, the letter also stated they contacted current interrogators and 100% of those contacted agrees torture is not necessary.
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andydp
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Posted: 08/02/06 - 13:50 Post subject:
| thegman wrote: | | andydp wrote: | | It has to say and indicate something when all the JAG (Military Lawyer) Chiefs have spoken out against the tribunal hearings set up for our prisoners. |
Can you give me a link or a cite on this? I'd be interested to read what they said. |
Here you go, from the Senate Judiciary Committe website.
http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=757
Click on the "testimony" links on the right.
PS: Can we get an edit funcion in this area ?
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bburgoyne26
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Posted: 08/12/06 - 22:03 Post subject:
| cherylpf wrote: | | bburgoyne26 wrote: | | Good one Andy....thanks, this will get passed along...... |
BB, please update us with a book review |
Oh man y'all.....that was a great book!......couldn't put it down....read it in a couple of days......very, very enlightening and traces the historical creation of the main Religious Right agendas and how they are used for political gain.......abortion, homosexuality, public schools, creationism, environment.........
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GaRebelRunner
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Posted: 08/13/06 - 07:16 Post subject:
Excellent article Andy. If the Southern Baptist Church behaved in accordance with the scriptures I wouldn't feel so alienated from it.
I have just begun looking into scientology. It's interesting.
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