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Wicked Flea
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Location: Hair of the Dog
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 Posted: 10/22/04 - 13:01 Post subject:
| genie wrote: | | The bulk of Kerry's rhetoric has always been "Bush did it wrong" rather than, this is what I will do.....especially in the debates. Am I the only person who notices this, whether you like Kerry or Bush? |
But showing what Bush did wrong (and Kerry IS saying what he will do check out his website or check the debate transcripts) is important.
Mainly because a lot of Americans don't seem to see his mistakes and Bush is saying he hasn't made any. 
There are still some who think there is a link between 9/11 and Saddam.
And the incumbent should run on his past record, which Bush is not doing. Check out some of his speeches.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 10/22/04 - 13:40 Post subject:
| genie wrote: | | The bulk of Kerry's rhetoric has always been "Bush did it wrong" rather than, this is what I will do.....especially in the debates. Am I the only person who notices this, whether you like Kerry or Bush? |
And while you keep saying Kerry hasn’t outlined they things he plans to do, it is just not true. You may not want to take the time to listen to him or read what he has on his website, but that does not mean the information is not out there.
But all that is beside the point. The fact is the report has been done for months, yet it has not been made available. Why? And what justification is there for holding the report?
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Ms. Jenn
Fresh, Hot & Wild
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 10:06 Post subject:
I agree with GRR.
If you worked with the CIA and you get thousands of crackpot leads a day and the 9/11 plot comes in, as equally far fetched as the rest, how in the world do you distinguish which one is a crackpot and which one isn't? It takes time, money and resources for research. These are three things the US has always lacked in every home, every business, and every government agency.
It isn't President Bush's fault these terrorists actually hatched their cockamamie plan nor is it President Clinton's. Nor is it the person receiving the leads. It's the terrorists fault. It's OBL's fault.
These people got lucky it all worked out that day. They got lucky that it was the heat and fire that collapsed the WTC. Just like with Pearl Harbor (as GRR said), the Japanese got lucky that everyone was still sleeping.
9/11 was a terrible tragedy and we have learned from it and are moving on. Today our airports, our sporting events, and government buildings are safer. Even after 9/11 there are still an awful lot of people who get really pissed off having to deal with the heightened security.
GRR is right, if that kind of security had been implemented before 9/11, the uproar from the American people would have been amazing. Maybe the attacks might not have happened, but we would be having a huge civil rights debate today rather than a "9/11:Let's blame someone".
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genie
Master of Prissface
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 12:54 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
But all that is beside the point. The fact is the report has been done for months, yet it has not been made available. Why? And what justification is there for holding the report? |
That's part of what I was saying. If the report has been done for months, why weren't more people clamoring months ago to have it released, as opposed to waiting til right before the election to squawk about it, thus making it look like there's a suspicious reason why it is being held up from release. Were there this many people griping about seeing it when it was first completed? I don't remember hearing that there were, so hence my suspicions that this is more partisan "spin" to make the administration look like it has something to hide.
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camelia bedelia
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 15:14 Post subject:
| genie wrote: |
That's part of what I was saying. If the report has been done for months, why weren't more people clamoring months ago to have it released, as opposed to waiting til right before the election to squawk about it, thus making it look like there's a suspicious reason why it is being held up from release. Were there this many people griping about seeing it when it was first completed? I don't remember hearing that there were, so hence my suspicions that this is more partisan "spin" to make the administration look like it has something to hide. |
I (and others) expressed the same concern months ago.
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Cappy
Excelent
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 15:43 Post subject:
| camelia bedelia wrote: |
I (and others) expressed the same concern months ago. |
Besides naming name, (read scapegoating) what other purpose would this report serve?
Again, the focus should be on blaming someone it should be on correcting it so something like this doesn't happen again.
Do you really think this would not have happened under a Gore Administration (the 9/11 attacks).
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megawill
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 15:55 Post subject:
| Cappy wrote: |
Besides naming name, (read scapegoating) what other purpose would this report serve?
Again, the focus should be on blaming someone it should be on correcting it so something this doesn't happen again.
Do you really think this would not have happened under a Gore Administration (the 9/11 attacks). |
Yes, I believe 9/11 would've happened under Gore.
I not sure why the implication seems to be that this will embarass Bush or blame his adminsitration for the attacks. If their is information in there that embarasses the Bush admistration, then aren't the american people entitiled to see that information before they cast their vote for or against the President, whose campaign has placed National Security and Terrorism as key issues and have as much said that if Kerry is elected we will be less safe?
My concern is what the report says about what was known inside the intelligence agency before the attack. Maybe if the agency had acted differently or was aligned differently something could have been done. Until the report is released I guess we will never know. My suspicion is that the report may suggest that certain changes should be made, changes that certain members of the administration or agency have opposed and that is what is causing the foot dragging on this.
Politics needs to be put aside to avoid the mistakes that led to 9/11 and/or to possibly prevent another attack. The mere fact that congress and the american people are not being allowed to see what is in this report is disheartening because in my mind it is clear evidence that politics is alive and well in the intelligence and security fronts. I'm at a loss as to why more here and in the public in general can't see that....
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megawill
Last edited by megawill on 10/23/04 - 16:59; edited 2 times in total
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Cappy
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 15:57 Post subject:
| megawill wrote: |
Politics needs to be put aside to avoid the mistakes that led to 9/11 or and to possibly prevent another attack. The mere fact that congress and the american people are not being allowed to see what is in this report is disheartening because in my mind it is clear evidence that politics is alive and well in the intelligence and security fronts. I'm at a loss as to why more here and in the public in general can't see that....
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megawill |
I agree Mega, this is no time for partianship.
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genie
Master of Prissface
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 16:36 Post subject:
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Cappy
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 16:37 Post subject:
| genie wrote: | Interesting.....my roomie just googled 9-11 report. If it's supposedly being "suppressed" then what is this?
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/ |
That is the 9/11 commission report. I think the one CB is questioning is the one done by the CIA
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megawill
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Posted: 10/23/04 - 16:39 Post subject:
| genie wrote: | Interesting.....my roomie just googled 9-11 report. If it's supposedly being "suppressed" then what is this?
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/ |
This is the report of the 9/11 commission. The report that is being suppressed is the investigation by the Inspector General's Office that focuses primarily on the CIA and was commissioned by the House Intelligence Committee.
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DCRunningDiva
Look at me!!! ©
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Posted: 10/24/04 - 07:43 Post subject:
| rtpd113 wrote: | and this is a government bureaucracy problem not with any administration. We can point fingers all we want but this "system" has been in place for years.
Being a government employee I can tell you first hand how territorial people in this type of profession are. People do not see the big picture and want all the credit. Things would get done a lot better if more people focused on the big picture not the glory. |
This really has so little to do with a particular administration. This is totally a government bureaucracy problem! Plus, I'll even go one step further...this is probably even a problem with having employees who give 100%.
Let's step back from this problem for just a moment and take a look at employees these days. Everyone thinks they are underpaid (even if they aren't) and overworked. I am sure this is the same in every government agency as well. I work as an independent contractor so I have done a lot of research on this subject. I can do more work in 3 hours at home working non-stop then someone who goes to work for 8 hours. Why? I don't have coffee breaks, I don't have distractions of people coming to talk to me and I don't surf the internet and post on RR (  )! My 3 hours will produce more work than many people produce in 8 hours at the office. So, if we take this information and put it in place at any agency then we will see that we have nobody to blame but the workers themselves. Many people are just plain ol' lazy at work. Don't you think if people gave 100% at work then their companies would do better?
Someone possibly missed something in the intelligence...but they were probably on a coffee break.
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Gogirlgo
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Posted: 10/24/04 - 12:18 Post subject:
And I have to wonder why Bush refused to go under oath, why he had to have Cheney with him on his "visit," and why he refused to discuss any of what went on during the visit to the media.
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Ms. Jenn
Fresh, Hot & Wild
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Posted: 10/24/04 - 15:05 Post subject:
| Gogirlgo wrote: | | And I have to wonder why Bush refused to go under oath, why he had to have Cheney with him on his "visit," and why he refused to discuss any of what went on during the visit to the media. |
I don't know the validity of this, but I don't think the President is required to testify before Congressional hearings and I don't believe he's required to take the oath because it is assumed he is telling the truth. The same goes for General Officers testifying before congress.
I'm sure he had Cheney with him because they run the country as a team and I would guess that Cheney has some insight into defense and CIA operations. I don't believe they should be required to disclose the content of that meeting due to matters of national security. Americans aren't the only ones watching the news for possible weakness material.
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sonnylax
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Posted: 10/24/04 - 17:58 Post subject:
| megawill wrote: | | Not that I disagree but it is an easy statement to place blame on Clinton, Bush, etc. What exactly did Clinton do to 'hamstring' the intelligence community? |
Well for one, Sudan offered OBL's head on a silver platter to Bill Clinton and we refused to take him into custody. This after OBL was directly linked to the the '93 WTC bombing and the killing of the ~ 100 Marines in Yemen.
Clinton's decision to to treat the '93 WTC bombing as a crime (not a terrorist act) was weak. The FBI couldn't legally share information with the CIA. His adminstration was also insulated from potential problems down the road. (If its a mere criminal matter, let the court system do their thing. If the criminals are released or found innocent, oh well. We won't have to deploy military forces or face any international backlash, etc...). The CIA was basically useless after the '93 WTC bombing which hamstrung them for a long time in the pursuit of OBL.
If he had taken OBL into custody (or turned him over to the property authorities in Libya or Yemen where he was already wanted on multiple charges), he wouldn't still be out there at this very moment in Afgahanistan somewhere. 9/11 most likely would have been a normal day in NYC, Washington DC, and elsewhere.
Clinton also failed to do anything after the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole where 17 US sailors died. (probably was too occupied with Monica) OBL was linked to this deadly attack which basically sank a US Navy boat. This was pretty much a direct attack on America which was ignored.
Clinton may or may not have hamstrung the intelligence community. You decide. But the fact remains that one Bill Clinton didn't really go after OBL either. At least with Bush, you realize what you see is what you get. He is determined to fight the terrorists on their turf.
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